Interview with Robert Arnold McCleve, Sr.

Robert Arnold McCleve, Sr. was interviewed by Randall J. Bunn on October 17, 2018 in Ivins, Washington County, Utah. He related his life experiences, particularly while serving with the military during World War II. Also participating: Brady Fronk.

RB:You told me a few [facts] before we started taping, but where were you born?

RM:I was born in Holbrook, Arizona on Armistice Day, November 11, 1927.

RB:Who were your parents?

RM:James Cyrus and Pauline (Greer) [McCleve].

RB:You were one of five children.

RM:There was Winston, Marguerite, Myrna, me, and Don Earl [McCleve].

RB:What can you tell about growing up in Holbrook, Arizona?

RM:It was a small town; however it was a very busy and important town.

RB:Why?

RM:It was called the Hub City because all of the highways came into Holbrook. From the Indian reservations and from the south, all of the farming communities, [which were] mostly ranchers. Cattle was the big thing as I grew up. Huge herds were brought into Holbrook because it had the nickname of the Hub City.

RB:Was it the county seat?

RM:Yes.

RB:Which county?

RM:Navajo County, Arizona. It also had the acronym of Hub City because 00:02:00everything centered there and it all went from there. It was a railroad center for all [of] northeastern Arizona. Winslow had the railroad changing [area], where they switched railcars going different directions, which was only thirty-three miles to the west. Flagstaff [Arizona] was the next one over [to the west, and] on the way to the east, the nearest one is Gallup, New Mexico. Holbrook is on the eastern border of Arizona.

RB:Did both your father's family and your mother's family help settle that part of the state?

RM:Both of my mother's and father's [families] were Mormon pioneers [who] came 00:03:00into Arizona [and] settled here.

RB:Where did your father's family come from?

RM:My father's family came originally from Scotland.

RB:Did he join The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] in Scotland?

RM:Yes. He settled in northern Arizona and Utah. They were Mormon pioneers [there]. Mother's family came in from Texas with a herd -- are you ready for this?

RB:I am waiting on the edge of my seat!

RM:-- with a herd of almost 5,000 head of horses.

RB:Of horses? That is incredible!

RM:I know. Think [about] driving and containing those horses all the way from 00:04:00Texas to Arizona.

RB:Do you remember, or know, what kind of horses? Was there a special breed or were they of all kinds?

RM:A lot of them were Brumbies.

RB:What?

RM:Have you ever heard of Brumbies?

RB:No.

BF:What is a Brumby?

RB:[Laughter]

RM:These are horses that grow up wild on the range, you would go actually -- it was not like a roundup; it was a roundup, but it was more -- like my grandfather said, "If you have ever been on a Brumby roundup, you have been to hell!"

RB:Is it that bad?

RM:You are never afraid of hell because you have been there.

RB:[Laughter]

RM:These are wild horses that grew up on the American plains. Most people have never known that. There were tens of thousands of horses out on the American ranges. The Indians caught them and trained them. When they came west, they saw these huge, huge herds of wild horses. Many of them were descendants of thoroughbred type horses; some of them were crossbred. Consequently, these were called Brumbies, [with] flowing manes and big tails.

RB:That is wonderful.

RM:It was like they were sweeping the sky.

RB:[Laughter]

RM:It is a term cowboys know, or are very familiar with.

RB:That is very interesting. Her family came from Texas. Originally, did some of 00:06:00the family come from Norway?

RM:[It was] Scotland.

RB:Did your mother's family come from Scotland as well?

RM:My father's and my mother's [families] all came. Let us go back to the original Scotland. The Greer's were Grerierson's, G-R-E-R-I-E-R-S-O-N. They turned it to Greerson, G-R-E-E-R-S-O-N, then shortened it and made Greer out of it. The evolution is through and from Scotland.

RB:You were born in 1927. When you were a small child -- we went into The [Great] Depression in the 1930s. Do you have any [recollection]?

RM:I remember The [Great] Depression [when] growing up; the hard times people were having and the shortage of things. I also remember the organizations which 00:07:00evolved from that which were very important. For example, the CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] and there was another one. I forget, but it was [also very] important. All of these [groups] were there. My older [Winston McCleve] brother joined the CCC and this is why it was so important to us because it was giving employment.

RB:[Then] he could help contribute to the family income?

RM:Yes.

RB:Your father was a CPA [Certified Public Accountant].

RM:At the time, he was not. At the time, he was a Continental Oil agent for northeastern Arizona. He supplied Apache County and Navajo County.

RB:Was he able to stay employed during the hard times of The [Great] Depression?

RM:Yes. He stayed employed with the Continental Oil Company, Conoco, until [World] War [II]. The reason he quit during the war is because they rationed things so hard that he could not make a decent living.

RB:What did he do then?

RM:He had been studying, by mail, a correspondence course, [to] become a CPA. It took him two years. He was very smart.

RB:Yes, I can tell.

RM:While in school, he was at the top of his [high school] class. He lost his 00:09:00father [Alexander Gilmore McCleve] while he was in school. Very shortly after he graduated from [high] school, his mother [Emma Cecilia (Jennings) McCleve] died and left him alone.

RB:He was born in 1892.

RM:I never knew either one of his parents; they both died young.

RB:They died too young.

RM:On my mother's side, I knew my Grandfather [Richard Decatur Greer] Noble, but not my grandmother [Johanna Cristina Frederika (Kemp) Greer]. She died of cancer. I do not know how old she was; I would have to look at records.

BF:During The [Great] Depression, you lived in the Hub City.

RM:No, I lived in Holbrook until I was nineteen years old.

BF:Did the cattle [business] start to dry up during The [Great] Depression? Did you notice that goods were stopping from flowing?

RM:Somewhat, yes.

RB:Let's change the subject to your schooling. You went to school in Holbrook.

RM:Yes, the high school was across the street and I was late every day. [Laughter]

RB:What year did you graduate?

RM:In 1945. [World] War [II] was still on [and] I caught the rear end of the war.

RB:What high school was that?

RM:Holbrook High School.

RB:What do you remember about your high school years? Were you a good student?

RM:[Laughter] I am smart.

RB:I can tell! You have three or four or five degrees.

RM:I did not make good grades. I was having too much fun.

RB:What kind of fun did you have?

RM:It was a different high school. During lunch hour we would go to the gym and dance. Sometimes, it would be live music with a few musicians or it would be a phonograph. Sometimes it would be square dancing or other times it would be regular round dances. Having a good time during noon, your time is occupied so that there is no mischief going on. It was a very different high school because 00:12:00of having these activities. We would tell the other youth from Winslow or Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake County, Utah who said] that school is so horrible, we would say, "What do you do at lunchtime?" They would say, "We go have lunch." I said, "We did too, but we danced." "What do you mean? Where did you dance?" We would tell them about it and they would say, "You are joking." "No, we are not joking." [Laughter]

RB:That is good. Were you a good dancer?

RM:Not bragging, a statement of fact; I was the smoothest dancer in the school. The girls loved to dance with me because I would not only dance, I would go out and sometimes I would twirl them, lay them back, and bring them back; there were all kinds of fancy things that I would do. The boys would stand there, "Where in the hell did you learn that?" I said, "I watched Fred Astaire." [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RB:I had a lot of fun. I was a very smooth dancer and that is why the girls 00:13:00liked to dance with me.

RB:Did you [participate in] any sports?

RM:I played football. I was a tackle. I was mean, I was vicious. I did not play basketball. I did play baseball,

BF:[Laughter]

RM:I was very aggressive. I stopped many a touchdown.

RB:They wanted to stay away from old McCleve! [Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:[Laughter] They found out that they had better because I did not tackle high, I tackled low and hard. I was fast, so they were hit down and rolling before they realized it.

RB:What were your favorite subjects in high school?

RM:I enjoyed civics and I really enjoyed history. Mathematics was not a big 00:14:00thing with me and I was not [very] good with it. I was very good at English. I had to because my parents demanded good English in my home. If you made a mistake, you [were] corrected.

RB:You learned at home.

RM:You were told, "That is not the correct way." You were told the correct way. Spelling was big because mother and father were both excellent spellers. Consequently, we were all very good students in that way.

RB:Did your mother go to college?

RM:No. She went to beauty school and owned her own beauty shop. For [many] years, that was it. She was a beautician, was very good at it, and had a great 00:15:00big clientele.

RB:Would you say your growing up was a happy time?

RM:Yes. My whole life has been happy. Let's use a different word; positive.

RB:Very positive; I like that.

RM:[I have had] a very positive life.

RB:You were about fourteen years old when Pearl Harbor [Hawaii] was attacked. Do you remember that?

RM:Yes, clearly.

RB:Tell about that.

RM:We heard on the radio.

RB:Did you have a radio at home?

RM:Yes, certainly, a high-powered Philco.

RB:Would you listen to programs on the radio at home?

RM:My dad was an avid listener. We had certain programs, mostly musical ─ news 00:16:00and music. Once in awhile, not very often, we would listen to something like Amos & Andy. My dad really enjoyed it. He was an orphan, and consequently why --.

RB:Yes, you said that his parents died when he was relatively young.

RM:Yes, he was raised by his aunt. Every once in awhile I would go away and visit with that aunt for a month or two in the summertime. That was me. I would go and visit different relatives. I would not spend a day or two and not mother's or father's, but mother's and father's. Mother's [family] were ranchers 00:17:00and had a lot of cattle. Dad's [family] were farmers and [had] different lives than the others.

RB:Did you help out with the ranching chores?

RM:Yes. I was born with a gift.

RB:What?

RM:Animals, with horse whispering.

RB:Do you know how to speak to the horses?

RM:I do not speak to them. It is amazing. I have been sitting, relaxing, in the woods; all of a sudden, I have a wild animal sniffing [gesturing to the back of his neck]. Where do they start? Where do they first approach? The back of [the] neck. Why?

RB:I do not know.

RM:Think about it for a minute. That is the most vulnerable spot you have. That 00:18:00is where they attack another animal, in the neck, the back of the neck if they can, because that paralyzes the [entire] system.

RB:That is true. They would start there, perhaps, to see what your reaction was?

RM:Yes. They would sniff all the way around. I do not get excited. My blood pressure is low. They came around to the front and sniff here. They get in my face; foxes, coyotes, bobcats [and] mountain lions.

RB:They could tell something about you that --

RM:Evidently.

RB:-- they were not afraid of you.

RM:Am I frightened? Not in the least. Excited? Yes, but still preserving that 00:19:00calmness which emanates to them that there is no anger, no ferocity. I am not going to attack. They can smell that and feel it. We do not have that instinct anymore. I have had such curious -- even wild turkeys will come up to me. [Laughter]

RB:That is amazing. [Going] back to Pearl Harbor, did you hear President [Franklin Delano] Roosevelt make an announcement?

RM:I was home for lunch, listening to the radio. They broke into it and said, "We have an important announcement. America has been attacked by the Japanese. Pearl Harbor has been attacked. They have dropped bombs on Pearl Harbor." Where in the hell is Pearl Harbor?

BF:[Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] Was that your first thought?

RM:Yes. They said Pearl Harbor was in Hawaii, a [United States] Navy base. I 00:20:00said, "Thank you for explaining." [Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RB:[Laughter]

RM:When I got back to school, I said, "The Japanese have attacked us, the Navy in Hawaii." The entire country, at the time -- Germany had gone to war; Hitler and Mussolini were there. There was tension all the time and we anticipated this. I ran into school, because I lived across the street, and I started announcing. I started to tell all the students who were eating their lunches.

RB:Were you one of the first to know at school?

RM:Yes. We had two sister towns one twelve miles away and one was fourteen miles 00:21:00[away]. The students came in fourteen miles by bus from Woodruff [Arizona]. [Joseph] "Joe" City [Arizona], twelve miles away on Highway 66, had no high school so they sent their [students to Holbrook]. They were all having lunch and I ran in. I was trying to tell them and they said, "Bull crap!" "No, it is not. We have been attacked. The Navy in Pearl Harbor has been bombed." Immediately, we found a radio. They were announcing it again, over and over and over. "America has been bombed by the Japanese in Pearl Harbor. Some of our Navy [ships] has been sunk. The USS Arizona has been hit very heavily and they expect it to sink." Here it was; it was not Orson Welles and the end of the world.

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:Do you remember that?

RB:I do. I was not alive, but I know about that.

RM:That Orson Welles program upset America so badly, you cannot believe it.

RB:Did you hear that program?

RM:Yes.

RB:Did you believe it?

RM:They are attacking; I ran out and looked and there was nothing in the air. There was nobody there. It was a bunch of crap. I ran back and told them, "It is only a radio program." Dad said, "Are you sure?" I said, "Dad, there is nothing going on absolutely nothing out there."

RB:[Laughter]

RM:He was getting ready to come out and he said, "Are you sure?" I said, "Yes, dad. There is nothing going on in the skies."

RB:That is funny!

RM:You would think, by the dramatization on the radio, that the skies would be filled with these invading things.

RB:That is right. A lot of people believed it.

RM:There was not anything in the sky.

RB: Did you finish high school and graduate in 1945?

RM:Yes, just before the end of the war.

RB:Did you get into the war?

RM:Yes.

RB:Tell about that.

RM:I joined the [United States] Army.

RB:[Was that] right after high school?

RM:The same day, almost. Three days after graduation I was in the Army.

RB:Where did you go to be inducted?

RM:[I went to] Fort Bliss, Texas.

RB:Did you take a train or a bus? How did you get to Fort Bliss?

RM:We were put on a Greyhound Bus. I think there were fourteen of us.

RB:Where did you go to sign the papers to get enlisted?

RM:In Holbrook.

RB:Did you go to the draft board?

RM:They had the recruiters there and they were all over [the state] recruiting. It was right there and I signed the papers.

RB:Why the Army?

RM:I [was] turned down by the [United States] Marines.

RB:Did you want to be a Marine first?

RM:Yes. I went to the Marines, took the physical and they said, "You have a hernia." I said, "Yes, I do." They said, "Sorry, we cannot take you." It was a very simple thing. It did not bother me, but I had an inguinal hernia. The Army said, "Fine. We do not worry about that." I said, "You don't?" [They] said, "No, we will operate after you get in the Army."

RB:Okay, you joined the Army.

RM:I did and they took care of it. I had an operation which was very simple, a 00:25:00recuperation period of about three weeks. I was fine, put on light duty for another three to five weeks, and I never had any trouble with it.

RB:Alright, you were good as new. You went to Fort Bliss, Texas.

RM:Yes.

RB:Was that for your basic training?

RM:Yes.

RB:What was that like?

RM:It was different. It was my initial [training]. Then I went [for] my advanced training, which was [at] Fort Knox, Kentucky. I did not get to see the gold!

RB:No? [Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:Did you know that is where the depository is for America's gold?

RB:Yes.

RM:Did you know it was an active Army base?

RB:Yes. I figured [so]. It is a fort and it was not about guarding the gold.

RM:It was a little tiny building that is in the middle of the Army base, guarded 00:26:00by the entire [Army located at] Fort Knox.

RB:It was pretty safe, I guess! [Laughter]

RM:They had the Armored Command and Infantry Command both there, and they surrounded it.

RB:When you finished basic training and went to Fort Knox, had they given you an assignment of what you were going to do in the Army?

RM:Not yet. I was training, at the time, in armor.

RB:Did you go to the armored division?

RM:It was primarily an armor base. During training, I was singled out and brought into the captain's office. There was a major there and I was 00:27:00interviewed. They said, "We have been watching you. Your instructors have rated you very highly. We want to put you in a special training."

RB:What did you think about that?

RM:"What kind of training?" "I am sorry; we cannot tell you at this time."

RB:Oh?

RM:"Just know that it is special. We are giving you thirty days leave. Go home and have fun." I came back and reported to a different base. I reported in and all hell broke loose! [Laughter]

RB:Where was that?

RM:The training I went through was things that -- I had rifle and bayonet [training]. This was different. This was close in. This was hand-to-hand. I was taught a dozen different types of knives, how to use every one of them. It was very, very different. Wow! I was introduced to the English knife the --.

BF:The Sykes, S-Y-K-E-S, dagger? [A double-edged fighting knife.]

RM:Yes.

RB:What is that like?

RM:It is a pointer that is named for a certain type. It is double-edged to a very fine point. [It is] all metal, no leather like the other knives. The handle is grooved deeply. Why? So it will not slip when it is bloody.

RB:Good grip.

RM:Yes. It has a lead guard, but you are taught to use it in fighting, put your fingers over the guard so that you can use it both ways or stab this way; not just this way or this way, but over the -- [gesturing how to use the knife]. It is a third way that most people do not know anything about, very difficult. On the other side of the guard, the blade is notched. It is not sharp so that your 00:30:00fingers can go down there without getting cut. It is a different knife and [we] were taught to use that. [It was] very deadly.

RB:If you are going to be involved in hand-to-hand combat, you are going to be doing something, not just with the regular infantry.

RM:There were so many different things I was taught in hand-to-hand combat, you cannot believe it. [They were] just simple things. Let me show you something. Come over here. Put your head up on my chest like you are going to push somebody who is going to push you. You should be down with your thumb on the back of the finger.

RB:[Painful response] Yes. [Robert Arnold McCleve grabbed Randall Bunn's hand on this thumb.]

RM:I just used a thumb.

RB:Yes, I could feel the pain on the wrist, in my upper arm. [Laughter]

RM:I put the thumb on the back of the hand and over like that.

RB:Oh gosh!

RM:It is that simple. Look what happens with the other hand. We go over this way, and look here. [Robert Arnold McCleve gestured with his elbow on his other arm as if hitting Randall Bunn's face.]

RB:[Painful response]

BF:Right in the face? [Laughter]

RB:That is amazing.

RM:Yes, it is. You were in such a position that if I were going to hit, I would hit you first with this. [Gesturing to his elbow.]

RB:The power of the elbow.

RM:I would come back with this, and I had this for the reserve if I needed it. [Gesturing to his fist.] I would hit it going in, and then hit with that, and come back with that. Three blows.

RM:To the face?

RM:Yes. The side of the head into the temple. That is what is so -- with this you cannot believe what it does to the skull? I can crack your skull there. This is one of the smallest bones in the entire [body] -- it is the side of the eye. 00:32:00People do not know what you can do with your bare hands.

RB:Were you getting that kind of training?

RM:I can kill you fifty ways with bare hands. [Laughter]

RB:How long was that training?

RM:I think that was six or eight weeks.

RB:Where was it? Also at Fort Knox?

RM:I was taken to a different place for awhile.

RB:Did you know where it was?

RM:Yes, I did. It was outside of someplace in Tennessee. A place I did not [know].

RB:Were you [talking] about Fort Campbell?

RM:There were only ten in the small cadre, class, that I was in because this was 00:33:00a very highly-classified type of instruction. We were not allowed off base. If we wanted recreation they brought girls in so we could dance and have the association, but we could not go off base, period. We were hand picked people, consequently treated very, very specially. At the same time, [we were] very contained. There were things like this going on in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force -- all were in a war that people had no idea what the training was that they were receiving.

RB:What was the purpose of these groups? What would they do when they were sent out?

RM:[We were] being prepared to infiltrate. For example, I was not prepared for 00:34:00the parachute drop, but I was inserted.

RB:You talked about the parachute drop. Was that in your training?

RM:Yes, but nothing like what the actual drop was from 30,000 feet without opening your chute.

RB:You are going straight down, and when were --.

RM:[We were going] 185 miles per hour. Can you imagine the surge and the power when you popped your chute? What you would feel like?

RB:Your body?

RM:No.

RB:Your groin?

RM:Yes, that is where the major pressure was, in the groin. That is why you grabbed those -- [gesturing to "parachute chords."]

RB:Yes. [Laughter]

RM:-- as fast as you could, to relieve the pressure. [Painful response] Even 00:35:00with a groin protector.

RB:Even with a groin protector [there was] a lot of pressure.

RM:You cannot imagine the pain.

RB:I have never experienced that.

RM:It would make a great carnival [ride]. [Laughter]

RB:Yes. How many times did you jump out of an airplane?

RM:Three times, but that was the worst, and the very highest insertion.

RB:Twenty thousand feet?

RM:Yes.

RB:Was that in training?

RM:That was the actual drop.

RB:After you finished your training, where did you go?

RM:Into combat.

RB:Where?

RM:Europe. Italy.

RB:They sent you to Italy? Tell about your time in Italy. Was the war almost 00:36:00over in Europe? It was over in May.

RM:Yes. They still had leaders who were fomenting [discord] and they had to be taken out.

RB:There was still some clean up to do.

RM:Yes, it was bad.

RB:What happened? Tell about it.

RM:Italy was in turmoil because of [Benito] Mussolini and the programs which he had initiated.

RB:Like what?

RM:It was starving the people for all the military programs that he had developed and would introduce them [to the people]. Some of [the programs] were being tried. He gave the Germans some of their best tactics. A lot of people do not realize that. They thought he was merely a lot of "bombasto." He was a good tactician.

RB:Were there a lot of Italian military who were still a threat?

RM:Think back to the Crusades and before. Who were the great warriors? The Italians [and] the Greeks. It was not until later that the northern tribes, such as the English gained report. It was the southern ones who were the leaders.

RB:They had to be dealt with even though the war had ended in Europe. What kind of experiences did you have in Italy? Did you have to use any of your knife training or hand-to-hand combat?

RM:[Laughter] I can still use a knife in so many different ways that you cannot believe it. Being a school teacher, I had to be very, very, very careful if I 00:38:00touched a student. It was not quite as stringent as it is today, but at the same time, you had to be strict. I had to be super careful because I could hurt the boys so quickly and easily.

RB:Did you use any of your training in Italy?

RM:[Laughter] Yes.

RB:Did you have some experiences where you were fighting with the Italians?

RM:I had to slip in and out, [that] is what I was doing. Yes, I killed a lot of people.

RB:[Did] you have specific missions that they gave you?

RM:I had certain people that I had to go take out.

RB:That is what I was getting at.

RM:I had to go in to certain Italian officers, or a civilian, a mayor or somebody to take these out who were fomenting [discord] against the occupation troops. We had to go in as a team. Generally, we would go with three people.

RB:Would the intelligence office know where these people were?

RM:We would know where they were.

RB:You knew where they were.

RM:We would have pictures of them; they would show us pictures, with as many different [varieties of] clothing they might wear, or where they might be. They had a portfolio. We would go through and study them so that we would know and anticipate where to find your man, or how to get out of a particular place where we were. You do not go in blind. [When] you [went] in, you had been totally 00:40:00informed of what your mission was. It is ingrained in you, almost, to the point where, "I have it up here; [gesturing to his head/brain] I do not need any --." "Yes, you do."

RB:Did you go as a team? How many?

RM:Yes, [a] three-man team.

RB:Did each of you have different roles to play? How did you plan out a mission?

RM:We had a total plan. There were certain things that had to be accomplished. We all three knew what they were. We would decide when we got there: you go here, I am going there, I am going here. We will meet back here. We would go three different ways. Sometimes the mission was that all three of us would go to the same place. It would all depend on what the mission was, who it was, and 00:41:00what it was that they wanted accomplished. It was not only one time, but two, three, four, or five times that we would have to be inserted. Most of the time, it was by parachute. Sometimes it was not. A lot of times it was by boat; sometimes a motorboat, sometimes a big boat.

RB:[Laughter] If you [were] inserted with a parachute, for example, how would you get back?

RM:We would walk ─ [laughter] no!

RB:Was there a meeting place that you were supposed to go to and then you would be taken back?

RM:We would come back any way that we possibly could. Sometimes we were walking; sometimes we would hitch a ride. Sometimes we would jump on the back of a military truck that was going the direction we wanted to go.

RB:What kind of clothing did you wear?

RM:Most of the time, we would wear Italian civilian clothes.

RB:Did you learn any Italian?

RM:Parla Italiano?

RB:No, [laughter] but you do.

RM:Yes.

RB:Did they teach you Italian?

RM:No, I picked it up.

RB:You picked it up being there. You had to communicate with people. Did many people speak English?

RM:Yes, quite a few.

RB:That helps.

RM:"Parla Inglese?" "Yes, I speak English."

RB:Would you need to get directions from people?

RM:Yes.

RB:How would you find these places? [If] you [were] someplace and you did not know which street or where a certain building was, you would need to talk to people.

RM:You would hold the map out on a tablet and ask them, in Italian, where it was. They would speak fast. Then they would point out where it was and you would listen very carefully to what they were saying. This is the way I started 00:43:00picking up the Italian [language] more and more. It was an easy language to assimilate. It flows.

RB:It is a beautiful language.

RM:It is actually easier than Spanish.

RB:In some of these missions, were you scared?

RM:Not until we got into the mission itself.

RB:Did you have a firearm weapon with you?

RM:Always.

RB:What kind of weapon did you use?

RM:We would carry, for example, if we were in Italy, we would carry a Beretta. That is their --

RB:-- Italian hand gun.

RM:Yes. A Beretta is not only a hand gun. They produce war weapons too, 00:44:00sub-machines guns. The Beretta shotgun was renowned.

RB:Did you carry a hand gun or did you carry --.

RM:[Laughter] I carried at least three hand guns.

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:We were prepared.

RB:Did you have knives, and hand guns, and --.

BF:Did you ever [have] your cover blown?

RB:Did people ever know what you were going to do?

RM:Yes. We had to fight our way out and we killed a lot of people.

RB:Did you kill people with knives, with guns, with combat, all of that, whatever you needed to?

RM:Yes. Do you know [how] easy it is to kill a man, to snap his head and break 00:45:00his --?

RB:I do not.

RM:That second. [Gesturing with the snap of his finger and thumb.]

RB:How do you know if you have killed them or not? Can you just tell?

RM:When you hear that snap, you know you have broken their spine and you drop them. They are dead. They do not kick or anything else, they just drop.

RB:When you did that, did you leave them there? There was nothing more you needed to do, you have accomplished that --.

RM:No. [When the person finds them they would see they were dead] they would call a doctor. They would examine them and [say] "heart attack." They very seldom x-rayed the neck.

RB:[Did] they think they [had] died of natural causes?

RM:Yes.

RB:Were you able to sneak out, get away and they never knew what happened? Would you have to write a report of your mission?

RM:Sometimes [the report would be] five to ten pages. They want minuto not just [that] I was there; they want the minuto [minute details].

RB:[They wanted to know] what happened.

RM:How did you do it? What did you use? How did it affect; cause and effect?

RB:Did you spend all that time in Italy? Was that the only country you were [in]?

RM:[I was there] eleven months.

RB:You were in Italy eleven months?

RM:I think it was eleven months.

RB:Do you recall what part [of Italy]? Where did you operate out of?

RM:[Laughter] That was the trouble; I kept changing.

RB:[You were] a moving target.

RM:We would be moving up the peninsula.

RB:Towards the north?

RM:Yes, always.

RB:Were you ever in Rome?

RM:Yes, very shortly in Rome.

RB:But some of the smaller towns and cities?

RM:The supreme headquarters was there. I operated out of the smaller units. I did not need to see generals and they did not need to see me.

RB:What was the name of this organization that you were assigned to? You said you were special. Did it have an official name?

RM:It had numbers.

RB:So it was it that secretive?

RM:Yes. Nobody knew the name. [Laughter] "Where are you?" "We are over in Building Four." "Oh, you are in Building Four!" "Wow!"

RB:Something goes on there.

RM:"It is top secret." Yes, it was top secret clearance to get through the front door.

RB:Interesting.

RM:There was an armed guard at the door because there were so many British and English [troops] in there. All the Allies were there. We had Dutch, Norwegian, French -- "no parlais Français." [Laughter] I did learn that.

RB:Did you like your experience in Italy?

RM:I was nineteen years old! What do you think?

BF:[Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] You had never experienced anything like that in Holbrook!

RM:You cannot compare it.

RB:You played football in high school. Did that training help you at all?

RM:I was a tackle.

RB:Yes, you were a --.

RM:[Inaudible]

RB:You were an aggressor in football, but also in your military time.

RM:Exactly.

RB:Were you discharged when you came back from that [assignment]?

RM:Yes.

RB:You said [you were gone] eleven months, which would have been sometime in 1946?

RM:Yes.

RB:Were you able to talk about your experiences at that time? Or was it still top secret?

RM:Yes, [but] I did not need a psychiatrist.

RB:I mean the secret nature of what you did. Could you tell your parents?

RM:No, there were some [events] I could not talk about.

RB:What happened in Italy stayed in Italy!

RM:Yes. "What did you do in the Army?" "I was a private; I was a PFC [Private First Class]." "What did you do?" "I did what PFCs do. I marched and marched and marched."

RB:[Did] you have a stock answer when anybody asked you? Did you change the subject?

RM:Yes, zip your mouth. It was closed and it was locked.

RB:You are wearing captain's bars.

RM:That was later.

RB:What was your highest rank during the war?

RM:I was a captain.

RB:When you came back, where were you discharged?

RM:Fort Knox, Kentucky. This was my terminal organization. I went back to my original unit and there are no questions asked. "Where did you go after school? Oh yes, no questions." They had so damn many different schools pertaining to what your duties were as an armored officer that they varied as to where they 00:51:00sent you. It could be to gunnery school or it could be to, if you were the engineer type, to the motors.

RB:If you only said, "I was at training" or "I went to school," nobody ever asked?

RM:No, they never asked.

RB:Did you travel to Italy and back on a ship?

RM:[No, on] an airplane.

RB:Lucky you!

RM:That is all according [to how you look at it]. That is if you do not mind flying in the cargo airplanes, the ones they use for mail and so forth. [It was] okay.

RB:It was not a cushy flight.

RM:No seats, only the mail bags.

RB:Did they have something to sit on the sides, or did you sit on the floor?

RM:Duffel bags, mail bags, always.

RB:It was a long flight. [Laughter]

RM:We learned not to sit on the boxes.

BF:[Laughter]

RB:Somebody would be upset if you smashed their box. [Laughter]

RM:It was mail for the [troops].

RB:Yes. Were you able to communicate with home?

RM:Yes, letters went regularly all the time.

RB:Did you have a regular girlfriend that you wrote to?

RM:I had too many girlfriends!

RB:[Laughter] The McCleve fancy dancer!

RM:I did not have a regular girlfriend until after I [was] out of the service. I came home and enrolled at the University of Arizona [Tucson, Arizona]. I came home for a break as universities [have]. I walked in the front door and my 00:53:00[youngest] brother [Don Earl McCleve] was there. He said, "I am glad that you are home." I said, "What is [going on]?" He worked for the highway department. "Robert, I have a date tonight with Louise and I cannot make it. I have to watch the motor pool on the highway. Would you take her to the dance?" I said, "Who in the hell are you talking about?" [Laughter] He said, "Louise." I said, "I do not know Louise. Who is Louise?" "She lives in Woodruff." That was [the] little town fourteen miles away.

RB:What was the name of the town?

RM:Woodruff. It was named after Wilford Woodruff, the [LDS] church president. It is [a] 99-9/10 [percent] Latter-day Saints farming community ─ farming and horses. That's Arizona. Everybody was raising beautiful horses. I said, "Do I go 00:54:00pick her up in Woodruff? Fourteen miles?" He said, "No, she lives with her aunt here in town." I said, "That helps. Who is her aunt?" "Her uncle is the bishop." [Laughter] [It] was three blocks down on the same street.

RB:Did you have a car to drive?

RM:I had my folk's car.

RB:What was that? Do you remember?

RM:Yes, it was a 1938 Buick. Dream!

RB:Yes.

RM:She was not at her aunt's. She worked at the Rexall Drug store. There were three drug stores. The Rexall was at the right [inaudible] alley. At the end was 00:55:00another drug store and across the street and down two buildings was a drug store. I know [because] my dad owned the building. He bought it after a fire, in a fire sale. They reconditioned the building and the drug store was one of the --

RB:Tenants?

RM:-- several [businesses] in that same [building].

RB:You knew that building?

RM:Yes. Most supplies and support were there and the theater down at the end. He did not own the theater. He owned two buildings there that had caught on fire. We got them reconditioned, rebuilt and refurbished. He put a drug store in one and a small clothing store in the other one. It had a hattery.

RB:It was a millinery [store].

RM:Yes, thank you. I knew it was a special order and I could not think of it.

RB:My grandmother did that. That is why I remember seeing the name.

RM:It was the only clothing store in town that carried Stetson, a top of the line western hat. If you buy a Stetson, you were looking at $20.00 to $50.00. Yes, I know it was expensive to own a good Stetson. They had different classes. Did you know that?

RB:No.

RM:They had first, second and third class.

RB:No, I did not know that.

RM:A first-class Stetson cost $50.00. That is back when $50.00 was a lot.

RB:Yes, it was a month's rent or more.

RM:It was a quality hat. I cannot [remember] what they called it, but there was a certain quality to that number one hat. That is why it cost so much. They felt like silk; they did not feel like felt.

RB:Very nice!

RM:Yes, my father owned two or three of them.

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RB:Did you find Louise that night?

RM:No.

RB:You were going to take her out to the dance.

RM:My [youngest] brother [had] said, "Would you take my date out to the dance?"

She was at the Rexall Drug [store], not the City [Drug store]. That was the one in the building that my dad owned. I walked into the drug store and her back was 00:58:00to me. I was sitting at the bar. She turned around and said, "Hi Robert, how are you?"

RB:She knew you?

RM:I said, "How do you know me?" She said, "Don Earl showed me your picture and we talked about you." I said, "Thank you."

RB:[Laughter]

RM:That cleared it up. We were talking and I said, "I am supposed to take you to the dance tonight. I understand there is a dance at the church." Every Saturday at the LDS church and it was a big thing. Everybody went to it and we invited our non-LDS friends to come. I picked her up at her aunt's place which was three blocks down from [my] house. We went to the dance and got on the dance floor. We were halfway through the first dance when she said, "You are a much better dancer than Don."

BF:[Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] You were a legend in high school! [Laughter]

RM:Yes, but she did not know that. I said, "If you would relax a little bit, we could have some real fun." She said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Relax for a minute; really relax, let me lead, and you follow. Do not tighten up like you have been." She said, "You can tell?" I said, "Very much so. I am a very good dancer and I want to show you some fun things to do. They are different." We went out and suddenly she was whirling and I did a dip and back up and she said, "Holy Mackerel! How did you do that?" [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:I said, "That was easy. That was an easy one." She said, "No one has ever 01:00:00done that to me before." "I know." We did some more. I did a couple of more things then she said, "You do not dance like Don at all." I said, "I am not my brother in any way, shape, or form." "Oh." We were sitting on the side and I turned around and said, "I will make you a bet." She said, "What kind of a bet?" I said, "I will make you a bet I can kiss you without touching you."

RB:Yes?

RM:That is what she said.

RB:[Laughter] In disbelief?

RM:You can tell; I had her hooked.

RB:She was curious!

RM:I am going to reveal to you something; a woman's greatest weakness. What is it?

RB:I do not know.

RM:They have to know.

RB:Oh? [Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:You cannot leave them lingering. They have to know.

RB:The hook?

RM:Yes, I learned that early. I used that hook all the time, and it worked so good. You are still waiting?

RB:Yes.

RM:How do you kiss a girl without touching her? I got her in a very nice position and I said, "There is only one condition." She said, "What is that?" "You have to close your eyes and you cannot peek." She said, "I do not cheat." "Good."

RB:[Laughter]

RM:She closed her eyes and I kissed her full on the lips and touched her. Her eyes opened and she said, "You touched me." I said, "Oh, you win." [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RB:That is good! Had you used that on another girl before?

RM:Yes, all the time. It never failed.

RB:Robert, Robert, Robert!

RM:He likes that.

RB:Yes, he does. You got him hooked.

RM:It is very simple. I just told you the big secret about women. They have to know.

RB:It is psychology.

RM:You set it up and they fall into it every single time, so easily.

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:They have to know.

RB:After you kissed her and you said that she won, was she upset or did she like that kiss?

RM:She said, "You are sneaky!" I said, "No, I do not sneak. We did it in the open. I am clever. You have to be wary of me." She said, "Yes."

RB:Did you think you would see her again after that night?

RM:Yes. She said, "You are a better dancer than --. "I said, "Louise, I am here, 01:03:00I am good at anything I do, I am good." She said, "Yes." That is when I kissed her again, this time without fanfare, with no tricks, full on the lips, gentle, but firm embrace. That was it.

RB:You sealed the deal.

RM:Yes.

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RB:How long after that did you get married?

RM:About six months.

RB:Six months of courting and dating?

RM:We had to court.

RB:When did you figure out that you fell in love with her?

RM:When I kissed her.

RB:That first night?

RM:Yes.

RB:What about her? Was she convinced?

RM:I liked her very much. That was Don's last date!

RB:I can tell. Was he upset with that?

RM:No, because he was in college and went back to college. I had already finished.

RB:Have you and Don joked about that over the years, how he set you up and he did not know?

RM:Yes, somewhat.

RB:I can imagine.

RM:He does not like to remember because I was taking advantage of him. He says, "You could always out-dance me, you were always -- I do not understand it." I said psychologically, "Don, I figured out many years ago" -- with my older sisters -- "they have to know." There is a ten-year difference to the closest 01:05:00sister to me. I would hear them talking about their dates and I would listen to them. "That is easy." "That is dumb." These are things I am thinking to myself.

RB:But you were picking up some of these tips and clues [of] how women reacted to certain things that the [men] would do?

RM:Yes.

RB:That is very smart.

RM:I put them all together and I thought: that would work, that would work easy. Or that was a dumb move, mister. You should never have tried that.

RB:That is good. The two of you were married, but you were going to school at the University of Arizona.

RM:Yes.

RB:Where is the University of Arizona, in Tempe?

RM:In Tucson.

RB:Arizona State [University] is in Tempe.

RM:Arizona State University. It used to be Arizona State College at Tempe and 01:06:00then they changed it to University just recently.

RB:Did you take her to Tucson? Did you stay at the school?

RM:Yes. That was when we [were] married while I finished up my schooling.

RB:Did you have to date from a distance, coming back from Tucson?

RM:Yes, for awhile, then we eloped.

RB:Where did you get married?

RM:[In] Gallup, New Mexico, ninety miles away. [We] did not have to have all the papers that you needed in Arizona to get a marriage license.

RB:When you eloped, did you tell anyone?

RM:No.

RB:You went off and came back --.

RM:That is why you elope! [Laughter]

BF:Of course, you were married.

RB:Were her parents surprised?

RM:[Laughter] Everybody was surprised!

BF:[Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] Were they upset, seeing their daughter up and get married?

RM:Yes, and my parents were upset. I went in and talked with my dad for awhile. They knew her, but they did not expect it.

RB:You said her dad was the bishop?

RM:No. He drove the bus to the local high school for a long time. He was also a very, very good finish carpenter. When you are a finish carpenter -- he could do rough work, but --.

RB:-- finish it and he would make the --.

RM:Yes. He was excellent, [did] very fine work. He liked to do that and was good 01:08:00at it. Do you know what a finish carpenter is?

BF:Yes.

RM:A lot of people do not. You say a finish carpenter and they say, "What the hell is a finish carpenter?" [Laughter]

RB:From Finland? [Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:Her uncle was the bishop.

RB:I am changing the subject here ─ you have talked about education. You graduated from University of Arizona. Then you had the GI bill that helped pay for that. What did you do after you graduated?

[GI Bill of Rights was a government issued bill for veteran's education after World War II.]

RM:I went to BYU [Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah County, Utah for] my masters [degree].

RB:What subject did you get your masters in?

RM:Art Education.

RB:What caused you to go into art and art education? Did you always have that interest?

RM:I was always very good at drawing. In high school, I did the annual 01:09:00[yearbook] and [projects] like [that]. It was natural, but I had a good art teacher in high school, too, who took an interest in me and introduced me to new mediums to work in and different techniques. She would work right with me and show me things. I thought: that is great. That is what I want to [do].

RB:Did you go further and get your MFA [Masters of Fine Arts degree] --

RM:Yes.

RB:-- at BYU?

RM:In Arizona, in order to teach, you had to have a masters [degree].

RB:Was [your] goal to become a high school teacher?

RM:Yes.

RB:You said you liked painting and visual arts. Was there any particular medium that you really enjoyed?

RM:That was funny. I did not have any one [medium] in particular that I liked 01:10:00the best. I would often draw or paint something and the subject itself would tell me what I wanted to use.

RB:In your painting, would you see it in your mind and then be able to put it down on the canvas?

RM:Yes, always.

RB:That is a real talent.

RM:It is there. As you look at the canvas or the pad as you are working, the picture starts coming out because it is in your imagination. You [think]: that needs --, okay, that needs, okay that should go over there. That is the way it is. It is not merely looking at a blank piece of paper and drawing something. You are putting a feeling into it that you cannot help; it is there.

RB:That is amazing.

RM:The medium itself, what you are working with, has a feeling. It is a strange 01:11:00thing, but you pick up a colored pencil and you [think]: it has a special feel.

RB:That seems to tie into your ability with animals; a sixth sense.

RM:Yes.

RB:You have a tremendous spirit about you, somehow, that you are able to tune into another dimension almost. I do not know how to explain it.

RM:Yes, it is strange like that, very strange, like with animals.

RB:Yes.

RM:It is almost like we are doing mind reading to each other. That is what it feels like. It is mental, more than physical. I could touch them and I would feel vibrations. I would tell my wife, "Feel this animal; feel the vibration." 01:12:00She said, "What kind of vibrations?" "Vibrations. They are right there and you can feel it." She could not feel it.

RB:She could not feel it.

RM:It was strange.

RB:Very interesting.

RM:To have a wild animal come up to you and come around to the front -- they generally come to the back of the neck first, depending on what kind of animal. If they are a gentle animal, like a squirrel, no. If they are like a fox, they come in as an aggressor. They do not know; they are ready to fight. Never look straight in the eye; that is a challenge. Keep your eyes down or off to one side. If you look to the side, you are okay. Either way, look at them, but not straight on.

RB:Is that a sign of aggression?

RM:Yes. You [have] just said [to them], "I want a fight." [There is] such a 01:13:00difference. When I found that out, it was so, so fun.

BF:[Laughter]

RB:Animals, dogs for example, I have noticed they stare at your eyes and they do not take their eyes off you. Are they trying to read you, trying to understand?

RM:Exactly.

RB:Is that what you encountered with some of the experiences?

RM:If you have a dog that comes up slowly and he is looking at you, you look him in the eye and all of a sudden, I grab them before they can move. They sit down so easily.

RB:They know that you are the lead dog.

RM:I reach over to pet them and there is no problem because I am no threat. He knows that I am better and I am faster. He does not want anything to do with 01:14:00that. It is very different. People say, "How do you know?" I said, "You have heard of the dog whisperer. It is not made up; it is real. I can feel the dog and the dog can feel me. We have something that goes between. When he finds out that I am not an aggressor, it is all over.

RB:Yes. After BYU, did you come back to Arizona and teach?

RM:Yes.

RB:Where did you teach? Where did you go to live?

RM:[We moved to] Kingman, Arizona.

RB:Over by the Colorado [River]?

RM:Yes, on their border. That was the best offer, the highest pay. I was married 01:15:00and had children, so I needed a good job that would do it. It did not pay as much as I needed, so I took a second job, [also]. What do you think I did?

RB:I do not know. [Laughter]

RM:When I was in Holbrook, they established a very small radio station. I became an announcer. I had a program; I do not remember what the name of it was.

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:All I did was talk. People would call in and they would be laughing and they said, "You have such a funny program." I said, "I do not have a program. I am just on the air. The radio station is not official." Did you know you have to 01:16:00break a radio station in for thirty days?

RB:No.

RM:You cannot [simply] go on the air. They are listening all the time and monitoring you. They are listening for any of the no-no's that you do in broadcasting: profanity and indecencies which should not go over the air. They are very, very careful about it. Twenty-four hours, as long as you are operating, somebody is listening and they are taping your program. I assume they erase it later; there is no need for it any longer.

RB:If they caught you, they had the proof that you had violated the rules.

RM:Yes. You either got the permit or you did not. It was station K-A-A-A. Caw, 01:17:00the word. That is what they use until now. K-triple A, your bird station; Caw! [Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RB: Do you remember any good experiences that you had as an announcer?

RM:They were all good. I had a good time. We would play Glen Miller [records] and music [like that]. People would call and say, "That was great music," "We enjoy the music that you are playing." I said, "Thank you for calling. We will continue to give you good music. If you have any suggestions, we would be very happy [to] accept it in writing so we can have a memory. Calling on the telephone to request is hard because we have so many who call. Would you send us 01:18:00a postcard? We will do our best that we can to see if we can get it filled for you."

RB:Would you come up with your program in advance and get all the records and songs ready to play?

RM:Yes, you had to pull your program in an hour. While you were doing the announcing, you had another announcer over here, or another worker, who was pulling for an hour or whatever your next program was going to be.

RB:Later, they called that person a disk jockey.

RM:[Laughter]

RB:But you were a radio announcer.

RM:I was a disk jockey/radio announcer --

RB:And janitor or --.

RM:-- any mail that came along with it.

RB:Did that help to pay the bills?

RM:Yes.

RB:How long did you teach in Kingman?

RM:[It was] over ten years. Ellen [McCleve] was born there. [Robert, Jr.] "Rob" 01:19:00[McCleve] was born there and [Tim] Sean [McCleve] was born there. Kevin [McCleve] was not born there. Kevin was born in Holbrook. The last three children [Kevin, Karen and Maureen McCleve] were born in Holbrook. Why was I back in Holbrook?

RB: Did you teach in Holbrook?

RM:No. Did I teach in Holbrook? I retired from teaching and had an income from it. The only two places I taught were in Kingman and --. I did not teach in 01:20:00Holbrook. Did I teach someplace else? I am getting old!

RB:Did you say you went to the Art Institute of Chicago?

RM:Yes, I went to Chicago [Illinois].

RB:Why did you do that?

RM:I was pursuing a career in art. I found out that you do not elope, get married and not have a good income. Consequently, I had to throw the idea of becoming a professional artist out the window and concentrate on being a husband 01:21:00and earning a living.

RB:Did you go to Chicago before you started teaching in Kingman?

RM:Yes.

RB:You went from BYU and the University of Utah [Salt Lake City, Salt Lake County, Utah]?

RM:No, I came back to there. I went to the Art Institute of Chicago first.

RB:Was that after University of Arizona?

RM:Before. I started out that I was going to use the GI bill for that, and [as] I said, I got married. [Laughter]

RB:Then it was to University of Arizona.

RM:I did not have enough money to be married and go back to Chicago, rent an apartment and go to school.

RB:Life happened!!

RM:Life happened! [Laughter] We went to the University of Arizona and I took 01:22:00some more courses using my GI bill. I had a side job in Tucson, but I cannot remember what I was doing. I need my wife [Louise (Johnson) McCleve]. It did not pay much, but it was paying [something]. I was getting the GI bill; we were getting by on a shoestring, but we were getting by. We had our first baby and it was tight. It was really tight, but something happened. There was a court case and I was awarded about $1,500.00 for some reason. I cannot remember what it was, but it was a civil suit that a lot of people were involved in and I was one 01:23:00of them. That was what I got, $150.00 or $200.00.

RB:That helped.

RM:It was a godsend from heaven.

BF:What did you normally paint or draw? What subject, normally?

RM:Water color, oil, pencil, color pencil, charcoal, pen and ink.

RB:[Did you draw] portraits, landscapes?

RM:Dogs, animals.

RB:Do you still have some of your artwork?

RM:Yes. Go see my [children].

RB:They have your collection?

RM:They raided the walls. I would ask my wife, "Where did that painting go?"

Sean wanted that."

RB:You retired as a teacher and have a pension with that. How did you end up here in St. George?

RM:That was easy. You do not have to shovel sunshine.

RB:That is true, but there is sunshine in Arizona.

RM:Did you know that Holbrook, my home town, in 1937 for ten weeks was the coldest spot in the United States?

RB:I did not know that.

RM:[It was] almost 40° below zero and did not change night or day.

RB:Wow! [Laughter]

RM:A cloud bank came in and stayed there, no sunshine. It got so damn cold, we had to close off the front room because the ice had formed on the inside of the windows.

RB:That is incredible!

RM:Yes. If you read about that year, across the United States, the winter of 01:25:001937, was one of the coldest times in the United States.

RB:I will look that up.

RM:It was not only Arizona; it was the [entire] United States. There was a cold streak that came through from the Arctic. It had winds that you could not believe, and I was [only] a [child].

RB:You were ten years old? So you decided to come someplace that is warmer than --.

RM:You do not have to shovel sunshine!

RB:That is true. Do any of your children live here in St. George?

RM:Yes. My oldest daughter [Ellen (McCleve) Bonadurer] lives here; she works at [Dixie State] University. All my children are well educated.

RB:That is wonderful. How long have you lived here at the [Southern Utah] Veterans Home [in Ivins, Washington County, Utah]?

RM:An eternity! [Laughter]

RB:Where does your wife live? Is she still living?

RM:Yes. She put me in here. I am senile.

RB:You do not seem senile to me.

RM:No, I am not.

RB:Does she live on her own or with one of the --.

RM:Yes, she is at the house [in St. George]. Why did she want me here? "Stay here for a little while. I am working on my book for my [mother's family] book." She has been working on her book for six years.

RB:And you have been here! [Laughter]

RM:I have written four books while she is working on one.

RB:Really? What books have you written?

RM:All -- any of them.

RB:You are the family historian?

RM:Yes.

RB:That is wonderful.

RM:Interesting things.

RB:[Are these books] about some of your ancestors?

RM:Some of them who were very, very important.

RB:Have your written your own personal history?

RM:Yes, I have written my life story, but I have not finished it yet. [Laughter]

RB:That is true; you are here talking to me. You are wearing a brace. What [happened] to your leg?

RM:[It is from] World War II.

RB:What happened?

RM:I [was] blown off my tank. It destroyed the turret. I was lucky --

RB:Was that in Italy?

RM:-- because of the tube. We did not call it a barrel, we called it a tube. When that came flying around from the explosion, it hit my leg, knocked me off the back of the tank and my leg was broken. But, I lived!

RB:You lived, but was your leg ever the same?

RM:No, I have the limp and I have to wear the brace and [use] a cane.

RB:When you wear the brace, does it keep it from giving out from under you?

RM:Exactly. I do not limp when I wear that. I have to use a cane or something for support. If you watch me when I walk with my chair, I do not limp. I can walk nice and fast and easy because I am stabilized.

RB:That makes sense, and that is the problem.

RM:With the cane, I still have a little limp because I have only got one side with support. If I step over that, I have no [support] at all.

RB:It is about 5:00 p.m. and I want to close now. You are turning ninety-one next month.

RM:[On] November 11, [2018].

RB:Veterans Day. Armistice Day.

RM:They no longer call it Armistice Day.

RB:No, they do not. They call it Veterans Day. Looking back over your life, what 01:29:00would you say is the best thing that has happened to you?

RM:My family.

RB:What is your secret of a happy family?

RM:[To] smile.

RB:You said before, [to be] positive. That is the way you were with Louise at the beginning and all the way through.

RM:Yes, you have to have love.

RB:Love.

RM:You have to have forgiveness. You have to have empathy. I love that [about] [children].

RB:Did you teach that to your students?

RM:Yes.

RB:I am glad you did.

RM:I tried to get that across. When something would happen, I would make it a point, that day, to talk about that and what was [a] proper [reaction]. How do 01:30:00you act in a church? I would ask the Catholics, "How do you behave? What do you expect from us? What can we not do?" I would ask the Protestants the same thing. I would explain it to the LDS. The [students] said, "Why don't the other teachers not do this?"

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:I said, "Because they are not me." They said, "You can talk about some of the doggonedest things, but they are always important." I said, "I can remember it myself as a student and wondering --"Johnny Rodriguez [was] killed and he was a good friend. We are going to his funeral. He is a Catholic; I am a Mormon. What do I do? What do I pray? What do I wear? Is it different? Tell me." And they 01:31:00would tell me, "Thank you. Did you know you are the only Mormon [who] ever asked this? Why?" I said, "Because I want to be proper in your church and treat it the way that it should be treated and I would like you to treat my church. If you have questions, I would answer about my church. I do not care what you ask. I will answer." "Anything?" "Anything." One came back the next day, "Why do they go into the temples? What are temples for?" I would explain it to him, [and he would say,] "That makes sense." I said, "Yes, it does, doesn't it?" "Why doesn't the Catholic church do that?" "Why don't you ask your priest? I said I cannot 01:32:00answer that question because I am not a member of your church. I am not a member of your clergy, but I am of my church." He said, "You are a clergy?" I said, "I am a priest; I am a High Priest." "A High Priest in your church?" "It is not unusual." He said, "It is not?" I said, "No." "That is very different."

RB:[Laughter]

BF:[Laughter]

RM:I said, "Yes it is, John. There is a vast difference between your church and mine." He said, "Have you ever attended?" I said, "I have attended your church a lot. Have you ever attended an LDS church?" "No." "Would you like to? Would you attend with me?" "Yes, what do I have to bring?" I said, "You." "I hear you pay money." "It is called a tithing, and you give what you can afford. We generally 01:33:00say ten percent of your increase." "What is your increase?" "Your income." "If I came to church, if I am making $50.00, I have to bring ten percent." I said, "You do not have to do anything. It is all volunteer." "That is not what I heard." "You were not talking to a Mormon." He said, "You are right. It was a Catholic father." I said, "Bring him over and I will educate him."

BF:[Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] We will end this now. I want to --

RB:-- [say] thank you.

RM:It was my pleasure.

RB:We can end it.