Interview with John "Jack" C. Hunter

John "Jack" C. Hunter was interviewed by Randall J. Bunn on August 17, 2018 in St. George, Washington County, Utah. He related his experiences with the United States Air Force. Also participating: Brady Fronk.

RB:Would you tell a little about your childhood? Where did you grow up?

JH:I was born in Soda Springs, Idaho, but I was there for one day.

RB: For one day!

JH:Kemmerer, Wyoming was where I grew up.

RB:So that is really where you call home?

JH:Yes.

RB: Tell me the significance of Kemmerer, Wyoming.

JH: It is a big railroad place and coal [mining]. It was J.C. Penney's first store. I worked for J.C. Penney. I knew J.C. Penney.

RB:What does J.C. stand for, do you know?

JH:James Cash.

RB:James Cash Penney.

JH:My grandfather knew him when he was in a buckboard out in the mines.

RB:[Laughter]

JH:I worked for him as a stock boy when I was in junior high, in the evenings and holidays mostly.

RB:That was his first store?

JH:Yes, the very first store.

RB:Wow! When you worked for him were you in high school at the time?

JH:[I was in] junior high.

RB: [Did] he open that store during The [Great] Depression?

JH:I am not sure. The store I worked in was the newer one. The one he had, it was a wooden one behind [one] called The Golden Rule. It never was J.C. Penney. It wasn't until he moved to the new store then it was called J.C. Penney.

RB: Alright, after his name. That is [very] interesting. Were you an only child growing up?

JH:My dad [Melvin Stevenson Hunter] was a [United States] Navy officer. The reason I was born in Soda Springs was because my mother [Wanona (Clark) Hunter] was dying of cancer.

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JH:I think the only reason they went there was because a specialist was there. I 00:02:00was there for one day and then I came back. My grandparents raised me. My dad was a Navy officer and the war [World War II] was on in 1943. There wasn't any way for him to do it. My mother's dying wish was that my grandparents would raise me.

RB:Was this your father's parents or your mother's parents?

JH:My mother's parents.

RB:Were they in Wyoming?

JH:Yes.

RB:Did your father ever remarry?

JH:Yes, he did.

RB:But he didn't raise you, your grandparents did?

JH:Yes. He never came back.

RB: What were your grandparents' names?

JH:Ira and Emmeline Clark. [They were of] old pioneer type stock. My grandfather was a railroad engineer and my grandma was a rancher. [She] ran a ranch. They called her a doctor because she could fix anything. She could fix a horse, a 00:03:00cow, or anything, or you. [They] didn't have doctors in those days. She would come to your house [and] she was a pretty good doctor.

RB: What was your growing up life like? [Was it] a good time [for you]? Did you like your childhood?

JH:Yes. Being in a small town that it was, a beautiful town when I was growing up there, [with] a lot of close friends. It was very good growing up there.

RB:You graduated from high school there in 1961. Did you go to Utah State [College, Logan, Cache County, Utah] at that time?

JH:I did. Everybody there went to [the] University of Wyoming, but I didn't. They didn't have an aviation program.

RB:[Did] you have an interest in aviation? Where did that come from?

JH:My neighbor taught me. I went up and flew quite a bit with him. He was a Civil Air Patrol [pilot]. They had an old J3-Cub [airplane] and he would take me 00:04:00flying. I kind of got the bug doing that.

RB:That makes sense. Your father was a Navy officer, but not a pilot. Do you know what he did?

JH:It was supplies or [something] like that. He was a supply officer.

RB:You went to Utah State because they had an aviation program. Did you get involved in ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps] or anything?

JH:Yes. That was what I wanted to do. I wanted to fly in the [United States] Air Force. So I joined the ROTC.

RB: You had your sights already set for that career. What did you major in [when you were in] college?

JH:Aeronautics and engineering.

RB: [That] makes sense and ROTC. When [did] you graduate from Utah State?

JH:[In] 1966.

RB:[Were you] still a single [fellow] at that time?

JH:Yes.

RB:After you graduated from ROTC, you [were] commissioned as a Second 00:05:00Lieutenant. What happened? This was in the middle of the Vietnam War.

JH:Vietnam War, yes!

RB: At that point, was there the idea or thought that you would end up being in Vietnam at some point?

JH:No, not really. I didn't care; I signed up to go and I went off for training.

RB: Where did you go for training?

JH:[To] Mather Air Force Base [near Sacramento, California].

RB:Was that your undergraduate pilot training?

JH:No, I was already a pilot. I went there for a short time because I [had] what they call career broadening. That was when, unfortunately, the Air Force was switching from Atlas missiles to Minuteman [missiles]. They wanted Missile Launch Commanders. I [was] sidetracked. I was sent to missiles, which didn't make me very happy.

RB:Well, no, you had your heart set on becoming a pilot.

JH:I [was] sent to missiles.

RB:You went to Mather and that was your basic training as an officer. But you had ROTC [experience].

JH:I went there for training, and shortly after that I [received] orders to go to Chanute Air Force Base [near Rantoul, Illinois] and then to Vandenberg [Air Force Base near Lompoc, California] for missile [launch] training. They were taking pilots and that stuff off. They didn't have enough crews to do Minuteman [missiles]. They just didn't have anybody.

RB: [Was it] because it was a brand new program?

JH:Yes, a brand new program.

RB:Chanute is in Illinois. How long were you there?

JH:I think two or three months.

RB:That was a basic introduction to being a missile officer.

BF:They didn't train anyone who was on the Atlas Missiles to do the Minuteman as well?

JH:No.

BF:Just all new [fellows]?

JH:Just all new [fellows]. It is a whole different system.

RB:[After] you were at Chanute, then where [did] you want [go]?

JH:[To] Vandenberg. It was the upgrade training there.

RB:You did your training there. Did you do a follow-on assignment there or did 00:07:00they send you off someplace else?

JH:I went to F. E. [Francis E.] Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne, Wyoming. [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] You grow up in Wyoming, you go off to school, you want to see the world and your first real assignment is back home! How far from home was F. E. Warren?

JH:It was at the other end of the state ─ so maybe 300 miles.

RB:Alright, this is probably already into 1967. This is your first assignment. What did you do?

JH:I was an ICBM SAC Launch Commander [Intercontinental Ballistic Missile, Strategic Air Command] in a hole.

RB:They had these silos in the ground.

JH:Our missiles were not like the Atlas [missiles]. I had ten missiles per squadron. I only saw my missile one time, and I had ten of them. For Launch 00:08:00Command, you go underground. I don't know how far those things go underground, but a long ways. Then you went through two big blast doors. Then you went in to the capsule. It was a capsule. They called it a capsule. It looked like a capsule. [It was] a horrible place as far as I was concerned. One side was for the deputy, and the commander sat in the front. It was all [computerized]; all you could hear was the hum of that computer all of the time. You were behind closed locked doors.

RB:Were you with another officer?

JH:Yes, a deputy. You had another officer. You had to have two [people]. You had to pack your .38s and everything in case he had to pull the keys out and turned the switches. [Then] you shot him. Still it took the two of you to turn the switches, so that was stupid.

RB:You shoot the other one because he doesn't do it, and have to wait for a new person [to] come down [laughter] and you have to let them in.

JH:It wasn't very smart. They didn't want them to break the codes. But it was pretty hard to do because you had a double lock safe. You had your padlock and he had his padlock. He couldn't get into it unless I got into it. It was kind of 00:09:00crazy. But it was SAC.

RB:They figured out this protocol to follow and taught you that.

JH:Yes. They were not easy either. They made it pretty difficult. I didn't like it, not one bit.

RB:Were there officers [who] failed? [Who] didn't make it into the career field that you know [about]?

JH:Yes. It was a pretty demanding field. You had to do a lot of computer [work]. They called it "EO" training. They had warfare training all the time and simulator training. We were supposed to only pull the maximum three or four tours a month, but we were pulling back-to-back tours. They didn't have enough people.

RB: How long was a tour?

JH:You got up early in the morning and went to the briefing. Briefing was at 7:00 a.m. After the briefing, you had to take a test. You had to do a written test, Emergency Warfare Test. If you didn't pass that test, they took you off 00:10:00alert and you [had] to see the wing commander.

RB: Every time you were on duty, you had to take a test?

JH:Yes, and if you failed it, you had to see the wing commander.

RB:Were they the same questions?

JH:No.

RB:Were they based on the briefing?

JH:They were based on the briefing. They were based on warfare type messages, how to fire the missiles and the sequences.

RB:You had to keep up on all that and make sure you could remember it.

JH:You had to remember all that. If you [had] to see the wing commander, your career was over. And if you are doing an ORI and the four-star was there from SAC headquarters, your life was over.

RB:When you say ORI is that Operations Readiness Inspection? That was kind of a good incentive to stay current.

JH:Yes, [to] stay current. [Laughter]

RB:Or you lose your job. [Laughter]

JH:After you [were] out of the briefing, you got [on] the helicopter. The helicopter flew you out to your sites. It was quite a ways away from Cheyenne. 00:11:00Some of mine were in Nebraska. They were quite a-ways. Some were in Wyoming and in Colorado. We weren't the only squadron. We were only one squadron. If you couldn't go [by] helicopter, you had to drive on the Wyoming roads in the middle of winter. That was no fun at all. And if the weather was too bad, the crew was in that capsule for an extra tour. It was absolutely insane. It really was. There was nothing to do down there. They had a bunk down there, but you weren't supposed to sleep. You could rest.

RB:How long was the tour?

JH:You got there about 8:00 a.m. with the helicopter. You were topside with the briefing. You had to brief the security people what your password was going to be that day.

RB:Was the password the password that would launch?

JH:No, the password [was] to get you in the door because if they came down to 00:12:00feed me, they had to have my code. If I told them there was an alert on one of the missiles, then I had to give them a code so they would know it was real. So you dream up some code, give it to them and you have to remember it [yourself]. Then you put your gun on, loaded it and then the elevator went downstairs. You have the blast doors, go in the capsule and you shut it. You didn't see anyone until lunch [when] they brought down your foil pack lunch. You put your gun back on because you couldn't let anyone in there with your gun on. Then [you saw] no one until dinner and it was your foil pack again. It was really [tough].

RB:Did you have a little oven to heat it up?

JH:No, upstairs.

RB:It was cooked and ready.

JH:It was a foil pack. It was just like you go [to the store and] get a Swanson dinner. It was the basic. It was warm. It was good food. It wasn't bad it was just a foil pack.

RB:Was it warm when you [received] it?

JH: No, it didn't get cold.

RB:You didn't have a microwave or anything?

JH:No, we didn't have anything down there. Being a commander I [was able] to pick what hours I wanted to rest. The hours I would rest were at night. [The] poor old deputy got to rest during the day.

RB:Was it a twenty-four-hour period?

JH:Yes, it would be 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. If you pulled an extra tour, it would be forty-eight hours.

RB:You had to be awake the whole time, but you could rest.

JH:You were supposed to. All the time you are coming over here, missiles have different codes. Airborne Command Post can fire your missiles. When they come over and set a test on your missiles, most of the time those crazy [fellows] do it in the middle of the night. At 2:00 in the morning, the [signal] goes off, and it is a SAC alert. They give you the code so you know the KC 135s are coming 00:14:00over to set off your missiles ─ not fire them, but to set off them. They were testing to make sure they [could] fire your missiles. So you [would] have to reset every one of them. It takes a long time to reset them so you didn't get a lot of sleep. All you do is hear is the hum of those computers and the deedle-deedle crap from SAC ─ the SAC messages.

RB:So you just sat there. Did you read or [do anything like] that?

JH:You could read, [but] I hated reading. But I learned to read.

RB:[Laughter]

JH:I bribed the security people upstairs to put the radio next to the earphones. I would put the earphones on so I could listen to a ball game.

RB:Something to occupy your mind.

JH:I always thought it was the most stupid thing [that] they ever did. They had no communication [from] the outside world. It would be nice if they [had] had a 00:15:00radio in there, but we didn't have any [thing like that]. It was miserable. It really was miserable.

BF:Did you have a lot of Section-8s that ended up coming out?

JH:There was not a lot, but there was a few [who] went crazy. You are in a capsule and some just couldn't handle being in the claustrophobic [situation]

RB:When you say Section-8, what does that mean?

JH:They just couldn't handle it mentally. They didn't call them Section-8. It was 35-something. It just meant there was nothing wrong with you physically. It just meant you couldn't handle being in there with the blast doors closed behind you and not being able to move.

RB: [Were they] emotionally unqualified or unfit for duty?

JH:They had a few of those. They were worried about the guns ─ somebody shooting somebody

RB: Yes, that makes sense.

JH:I did it for four years. They took us all in for a briefing from SAC 00:16:00Headquarters and said your four years were up. I had two years of reserve [duty], which counted as ROTC. You had to sign up for the Reserves, [when] they put you on Reserve Active Duty. The war was on so they could pull you right up and put you in the war. My six years were up, [as was] most of my squadron. They [had] us in the briefing and they said. "Okay, we have your new assignments." I said, "Let's see what you are talking about, if I go back to the cockpit, then we can talk." "Oh no, you get to go to Minot [Air Force Base, Minot, North Dakota] as a missile maintenance officer." "What? Goodbye, I'm done." All of my squadron, except for one person left. All of them [left] because they pull this crap on them and they didn't want to do that. A lot of them were pilots.

RB:Was part of the reason they had to do that because they couldn't get people to go do that career field?

JH:Yes. [It was] brand new systems so they just threw pilots in to it.

RB:You said no?

JH:I said no. Only one [fellow] stayed. He is a good friend of mine. His son was born with a brain injury and the Air Force was paying him for [his care]. He couldn't afford to get out no matter what. But we all got out. I went to the Reserves at Hill [Air Force Base, Weber County, Utah]. I went there and did the rest of my thirty years at Hill. We had 124s, [Douglas C-124 Globemader II] we went to F-105s [Thunderchief] and then F-16s [General Dynamics Fighting Falcon]. I retired at Hill as the group commander of the 419th Fighter Wing.

RB:Tell about that. You joined the Reserves, but you were working at another job?

JH:Yes, I was a Life Flight pilot. First, before I went there, I had an FBO [Fixed Base Operation]. When I got out of the Air Force, I went to work for J.R. [John Richard] Simplot in Pocatello [Idaho] ─

RB:A big company.

JH:─ flying his corporate airplanes. I was flying into Portland [Oregon] one 00:18:00day and he said, ""Jack," I'm selling all the FBOs. I am getting out of the FBO business," which is Fixed Based Operations. He said, "I have one in Pocatello, one in Sun Valley, Idaho and one is [in] Boise that I am going to get rid of."

RB:And who was that?

JH:J. R. Simplot,

RB:J. R. Simplot, himself!

JH:He asked if I was interested. I said, "Yes, I would like the Sun Valley operation. But J.R., what I would be paying you, I am not sure I can afford it." He told me to go up there, look at it and see what I thought. So I did, but there was no way I had the money to buy all the [equipment] he had up there. He had airplanes, fuel farms, buildings and it was a nice place. It had to [have] a lot of remodeling because it was old structures, but basically it was pretty nice.

RB:Where was it located?

JH:Sun Valley. I came back and called him. I told him I was interested, but I 00:19:00didn't have a lot of money. I had just come out of the Air Force. I told him I was married now.

RB:Where were you living with your wife? [Pamela (Harding) Hunter]]

JH:[I was] in Pocatello, with Simplot there. He said he would get with his accountant and see how much money it would cost me. He said he would let me know. I figured he would let me know, I would say that I was sorry and that I would have to fly a corporate airplane forever.

RB:[Laughter] He was trying to persuade you?

JH:He just asked me if I wanted to do it.

RB:What would you do, buy this operation? What did this operation do?

JH:[It] fueled airplanes. There was a fueling operation in Sun Valley. [There] also [was] maintenance, aircraft rental, and [there was] a Piper [Aircraft] dealership.

RB:Would you be kind of like a subcontractor to Simplot?

JH:No, [I] would own everything.

RB:You [would] own everything?

JH:He was selling everything. He only wanted corporate aviation. He didn't want anything else anymore.

RB:Would the work be for Simplot?

JH:No, it would be for me. I would own all of it.

RB:You would own it and who would you sell your services to?

JH:Anybody that flew into Sun Valley. Sun Valley is one of the biggest resorts in the world.

RB:Yes, of course. He was off-loading part of his operation and [wanted to know if] you want to buy it. So what happened?

JH:There was no way in hell ─ because I can't even buy a building, a fuel farm, a truck and four airplanes. I told my wife that it was dream and we can't do it. He called me back and said, ""Jack," I figured out how much you need to pay me." I told him, "Give me the bad news."

RB:[Laughter]

JH:He said that he wanted me to pay him $10,000.00. He asked if I could afford 00:21:00that and I said, "Yes!!" I could afford that; one of those trucks was worth more than that, not [counting] the airplanes, the fuel farms and everything.

RB:This was 1973?

JH:[In] 1973. I got out of the Reserves and bought that [operation]. I was still in the Reserves at Hill so I could do that.

RB:That was a great opportunity.

JH:Oh, it was a phenomenal one! It took a lot of work. [It was] seven days a week with twelve-fourteen hours a day.

RB:Were you personally flying?

JH:Yes.

RB:And running this operation, the business aspect of it.

JH:It was a big, big deal.

RB:Did you have employees?

JH:[There were] twenty-one [employees].

RB:You are managing employees, doing all the work and making this business run.

JH:Making it run.

RB:Did you keep the same employees [who] had been there already or did you start from scratch?

JH:No, I started from scratch because they only had one [fellow] there. He just kind of was managing [things]. He was an older [fellow] and he didn't want 00:22:00anything to do with it.

RB:You started from the ground up and started the business.

JH:I started with nothing.

RB:What did you call it?

JH:Up there? It was Western Sky Aviation the same as the museum here. Then I changed it to Sun Valley because more people would know Sun Valley than Western Sky.

RB:Yes. So you had this business and how did it go?

JH:It took a long time to build it up. I mean a long time. I had competition on the field. There was an airline there. The [fellow] sold fuel and did charters. Well, not charters, but he had an airline. He was flying Beechcraft Queen Airs based in Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake County, Utah]. He had a pretty good business going there. Then one day he took off, an engine caught fire and he crashed on landing. It killed everybody on board and his business was gone.

RB:Essentially, you were a small local airline.

JH:Yes, just a small local [fellow].

RB:[Did] you fly people?

JH:We flew to Boise and to Salt Lake [City]. As soon as his airline quit, then Key Airlines came in and we flew all their overloads to Boise and Salt Lake [City]. Then we had maintenance. We had good maintenance, I think. We sold fuel and we had the Piper dealership. I think we did [very] well. Sun Valley has a lot of money and I sold a lot of airplanes. Business was good, but it was hard. It was tough. I was a young [fellow] and didn't know any better. If I had someone who was a good accountant, I would have done a lot better.

RB:Is that right?

JH:With budgeting and all that kind of [accounting]. I didn't have that kind of [a] career. I didn't have any kind of background in that. I finally hired a young [fellow] and he helped me fix that. Things at Hill were getting ─ they wanted me to be closer and closer because I was in the command position and they didn't want me to be so far away. I said that this [the FBO] was my livelihood. 00:24:00Then OPEC (Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries) came.

RB:What time period are we talking about?

JH:It was the latter part of the 1970s. When OPEC hit, it was the biggest farce that ever happened. We couldn't get fuel. [I] couldn't get fuel and [there were] Gulf Streams coming in from all over the world. Airliners [were] coming in there and I [couldn't] sell fuel because I didn't have fuel. At that time, I [used] Phillips Petroleum and Texaco, both companies. I said to Phillips that I had been a good customer for years and years, paid all my bills and [you] aren't getting me good fuel. They said if I didn't like it, it was tough. They said they were giving it to the airlines. They didn't care. I asked Texaco if they could supply me fuel. They said yes, but it was coming out of Los Angeles, California. I had trucks coming every other day because I sold that much jet fuel. I couldn't do this once or twice a week. There wasn't any way.

RB:They would have to haul it up by truck?

JH:Yes, from Los Angeles. It was very expensive. I didn't see any end to this [situation]. I had no idea it would end in six months. I had no idea whatsoever. I was trying to feed employees and keep them employed. My maintenance business was doing okay, but not great. I wasn't flying any airline business because there wasn't any fuel. I panicked and I shouldn't have done that. I should not have panicked.

RB:[Did] you decide to bail out of this business?

JH:I sold it. A [fellow] walked in the door and said he was looking for a business to buy. Big mistake! I said, "Okay. Let's sit down and talk about it."

RB:Did you take a loss?

JH:No, I didn't, that was the thing. Let me tell you the whole story.

RB:Okay, go ahead. [Laughter]

JH:This [fellow] used to work for the Carter Administration. That ought to tell 00:26:00you something to start with. He had some money because his wife was Crown Zellerbach's daughter, if you know who Crown Zellerbach is.

RB:They are out of the Northwest ─ [a] paper company.

JH:One of the biggest paper company in the world. He had money. He said for tax reasons, he would pay money down and he would pay the rest over a five-year period. Great, that worked for me. We decided on a price. I thought it was a fair price, [for] all the work I did, all these buildings I had [built].

RB:You had built up this business.

JH:I will have to tell you about the huge hangar that I had. That's another story. I had a good business built up for ten years. I had a good business until OPEC. If I had just stayed, just lasted six months, but I didn't know [how] I 00:27:00was going to pay all my employees. If you lay them off, and then [you] can't get them back. I had built this business up. The corporate [fellows], they understood. They were tanking fuel in and tried to help me as much as they could.

Anyway, I sold it to this crook. He had no intention of paying me, whatsoever. He was a crook, just a stinking, lousy crook. I got my attorney. I wasn't smart enough to get ─ he was a friend of mine from college. Instead of getting one of these bulldog attorneys, I got Steve. Steve is a good [fellow], but he is not a bulldog. He needed to be to go against this [fellow] and his attorney. Three years later ─ when I sold it to him, I had everything paid off. I didn't owe anybody a dime, nothing. I sold it to him. I [received] a down payment that 00:28:00would help somewhat. The rest of the money I never got.

Three or four years [later], we finally got in court. We went through all the process. My attorney kept looking at me and I said, "What is wrong, Steve?" He said he didn't think it was going well. I asked him why he didn't think it was going well. I said that they had all the documentation and everything is in line. He said that is not the problem. He said to just hold on. The judge said he reviewed everything and, "I agree that the business is yours." I said, "Great, I don't want it." The judge asked why not and I said, "Because he put millions of dollars of debt on it. And I am not taking his debt. I want the money he owes me." The judge said, "Take it or leave it." My attorney said, "He 00:29:00has been bought off."

RB:Oh, that's what happened.

JH:Whether you know that or not, but it sounded like it. My attorney said, "He has been bought off." But now you know they are never going to take it back.

RB: So he would be off scot-free because you are walking away from this.

JH:He leveraged everything from the minute he got it. And I wasn't going to pick it up that debt. There was no way. I couldn't anyway. I wouldn't.

RB:Of course not.

JH:So I walked away.

RB:Wow! One of life's sad moments in your career.

JH:Yes, so now I have a museum, which was alright.

RB:Was this in the late 1970's?

JH:At least I was in the Air Force. But I did get some money, enough to buy my home down in Liberty [Weber County, Utah]. It wasn't anything near what he owed me. Let me tell you about the big hangar.

RB:Alright.

JH:One day [someone from] the bank came to me and said, "Jack, we are going to 00:30:00start flying checks in here with our Baron [airplanes] at night. We need somewhere to put it, in a hangar. Would you like to build a big hangar?" I said yes because I had Gulf Streams coming in here in the winter and I have no place to put them. With the ice I needed a large hangar. They said they would finance it for me and lease it from me because they needed the airplanes in a hangar. It was a win-win. They said I needed to come up with a down payment on the [project]. I said that I probably could do that. The rest of the story is: one time I flew and taught a [fellow] to fly in my airplane. I bought a Comanche, a [very] beautiful 1960 model Comanche. I think I paid $9,000.00 for it back then, which was incredible. I taught Bob Lee to fly the airplane. He is a doctor up in Sun Valley. He came in one day and said he wanted to take a bunch of people down to Mexico for fishing. I said, "Good, we will take the Twin Beach and you [can] pay all expenses." I am going to make some money on this. So we did. We came 00:31:00back from Mexico and he was excited to see his wife and [children]. His wife had come up to the airport. She threw him the keys, said that the [children] were at his mother's [house], that she was leaving him, going to California and that she had a boyfriend.

RB:Oh, no! Where did that come from? [Laughter]

JH:[Laughter] Anyway, he came back down about a month later and said he didn't want to pay that woman one dime of money. He said he had a ski lodge at Sun Valley, a big lodge, a beautiful place, right on the ski lifts and he owned it. He said he was going to give it to me for that airplane. I said I couldn't afford that place; that it was worth a fortune. He said he didn't want to give her a dime, that I didn't understand him. He said that he wasn't giving her a penny, and that the airplane was his and the lodge was mine. So I did.

RB:[Did] he transfer the title of the lodge to you?

JH:It wasn't in his wife's name and she didn't have any title to it. So I got a ski lodge for the airplane. This is a Sun Valley big ski lodge.

RB:This is a $9,000.00 1960 [airplane] for a ski lodge.

JH:We had the ski lodge for about a year. We rented it out. It was condominiums, a beautiful place right on the ski lift. I also owned the property from the lodge to the ski lift. I never knew what I was going to do with that. I could care less. The bank said that they needed a down payment and I said I could sell that lodge. I should have sold the stinking airport and kept the lodge!

RB:[Laughter]

JH:[Laughter] I sold the lodge to a friend of mine and made good money on it, enough to pay for the down payment on the hangar. It was big hangar. It was twice, three times bigger than the hangar out there. And it was tall.

RB:Why did you want to get the hangar?

JH:For the Gulf Streams. Because of the winter [weather], you put them inside and you made big money [off of] those Gulf Streams.

RB:Would you lease the space or would you have a business arrangement? Would they pay you to store their aircraft?

JH:Sure.

RB:You had an income stream from this hangar, a profit.

JH:You would make money, and the bank would be paying it off anyway because they had their airplanes in there. It was a win-win. Well, dumb me! I did that.

RB:Why was it dumb? It sounds like a smart idea.

JH:Great idea, right? Well, the bank came to me and said they decided not to bring the airplanes and that I could have the whole hangar. I said, "What am I going to do?" I said that I couldn't pay [for] this hangar and that wasn't the deal. They said, "Good luck." I said I would make it go because I could make money off the Gulf Streams, but I was going to make big money, not little money. When I sold the business, I would get it back. Then I sold my business and lost money on it. I got rid of my beautiful ski lodge in Sun Valley. It was two 00:34:00stories, beautiful stone, a gorgeous place. Now the worse part comes. The land between the lodge and ski lift ─ Earle Holding wanted to put in a ski-lift lodge there for Sun Valley Corporation. Do you know how many millions of dollars he paid for that little piece of land? [Laughter] I can't tell you how much money he paid for that land.

RB:He bought it from you?

JH:Not from me; from the [fellow] I sold the condominiums to.

RB:Oh, I got it now. Oh, man.

JH:[Laughter] That is how dumb I am. That is how stupid I am. The young [fellow] was about twenty-five years old and I didn't know better. I told you I should have kept the lodge and sold the stinking airport. I had no idea that land was worth anything. You should see it now. The building is a beautiful thing they have on that place.

RB:You had three down turns.

JH:It's only money, right? I was a multi-millionaire over and over again, and I 00:35:00didn't know it.

RB:[Laughter]

JH: I moved back down to Liberty with my family, which was a great idea because the schools up there are absolutely terrible.

RB:Where is Liberty?

JH:Do you know where Ogden [Weber County, Utah] is? You go over the mountain there. There is Huntsville, Eden and Liberty. I have a little ranch out in Liberty. And it is close to [Hill] Air Force base.

RB:All this time, were you still doing your Reserve duty on a regular basis?

JH:Yes, I was still doing Reserve duty.

RB:What was your grade at that point?

JH:I was a captain [when he sold the Idaho property in about 1984]. I got out there and made major right quickly. I was a major most of the time. Then lieutenant colonel and then colonel. That is my Sun Valley history. I gave eleven years of my life for sweat and blood and gave it away to a crook. To this day, I don't know if the [fellow] is alive or not, because he did that to Elkhorn in Sun Valley. He bought the hotel up there. Chicago [fellows] owned 00:36:00that hotel, [but] I don't think you want to fool with those [fellows]. I don't know if that [fellow] is alive or not. I hope he isn't. I hate to say that.

RB:He doesn't deserve to be.

JH:He doesn't deserve to be.

RB:Tell about your Reserve career.

JH:I was in the Reserves to start out when we went out to Wendover [Tooele County, Utah and Elko County, Nevada]. That is where there was an alternate base over there. We moved back into Hill [Air Force Base] and they wanted to start up what they called the 405th CLSS -- Combat Logistics Support Squadron. That was to do aircraft battle damage on F-4 aircraft. The war was on.

RB:What time period is this?

JH:It was in the early 1980s. The F-4s were getting damaged. They had seen the Six-Year War in Israel, and if they hadn't kept those airplanes flying, they wouldn't have won that war. The battle damage people kept the airplanes flying. 00:37:00These are specialists' people. Hill [Air Force Base] is what they call a depot. These people were specialists who work there. Not mechanics, they are specialists so they know how to rebuild an F-4 blindfolded. Those are the people I had in my squadron. We went all over the world fixing F-4 Phantoms.

RB:Who makes the F-4?

BF:McDonnell Douglas [Corporation].

JH:A beautiful airplane. We did that for a lot of years. Then I made full colonel and I couldn't hold a position. It was a lieutenant colonel position. The Wing said, "Why don't you come over to the Wing?" I went to the Wing and I was commander at the Wing, a group commander of the 419th Fighter Wing. I retired there.

RB: What time period were you the group commander?

JH:In the early 1990s, late 1980s. I retired in 1994.

RB:Did the group participate at all in Desert Storm?

JH:We were in Desert Storm. The 405th CLSS were in Desert Storm fixing the F-4s.

RB:Were you over there?

JH:I was.

RB:Tell about that experience.

JH:It was kind of a different experience. We went into ─ you fly into Bahrain. We went over commercial, then we brought the aircraft over.

RB:Was it August 3, 1990 or so?

JH:It was in 1990.

RB: Saddam Hussein came down to Kuwait and decided he wanted to take over. The United States kind of gets mobilized. How soon did you get mobilized?

JH:Because of Saudi Arabia; it was Saudi Arabia. They were scared of him. They wanted to be protected. That is why we [were] involved. General Norman Schwarzkopf] he was a great [fellow].

RB:Who is that?

JH:[General Norman Schwarzkopf]

RB:Yes, [General Norman Schwarzkopf].

JH:I was on the [U. S.] Air [Force] staff there. I would coordinate the Reserve forces coming in. I was there for a little while. We stayed in a little place 00:39:00called Eskan Village right outside of Riyadh [Saudi Arabia], which is a beautiful place. They made that for the Bedouins. It is all white marble. It is a gorgeous place, just like an oasis out there. There were swimming pools and palm trees.

RB:Wow!

JH:The Bedouins wouldn't live there because the Saudis wouldn't let them bring their camels in there. We had brand new places to live in there. We were in a beautiful place. The base was about thirty miles away. [It was] the Al Kharj Air Base. I hope they spell that correctly. [The Air Base is now known as Prince Sultan Air Base.]

RB:How do you spell that?

JH: I would have to look it up. Al Kharj in Saudi Arabia.

RB:It is for the benefit of the transcriptionist. It is in Saudi Arabia, about thirty miles from Riyadh.

JH:Yes, about thirty miles from Riyadh, out in the middle of the desert. It is all desert there. It is a horrible place. The Japanese gave me a brand new car. All the [fellows] had brand new cars. I got a brand new [Toyota] Camry. I would drive out to the base in the morning. I didn't stay out there because there wasn't enough lodging out there, except for the troops who were in tents. I would drive out there in the morning, be there all day and come back at night.

RB:What were your functions there?

JH:To make sure our Reserve forces were embedded with the active duty forces, were matched up.

RB:The Reserve units, not just from Hill [Air Force Base]?

JH:No, everywhere, everyone ─ all the logistic people. I did that. I just hated it; it was a horrible place. You can't imagine. You think this is desert. You ought to be out there where it is [very] fine sand and miles and miles of nothing. Absolutely nothing. You go past on [a] road and every once in a while you see a camel here and there. Every once in a while you see some big towers. They look like nuclear power plant towers with steam coming out of them. It would be lush green, absolute beautiful green because you have some of the best areas in the world there in Saudi Arabia. Beautiful areas. These were cooling towers for the water. [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] Just to cool the water?

JH:You think it is hot here. You ought to be out there!

RB:I was in Iraq for a while, 2004.

JH:You know then.

RB:But I left in June. The [fellows who] came after me said it got into the 130°s.

JH:Out there on that tarmac, it was 140° easy.

RB:That is hard to imagine.

JH:It was extremely hot. That is why they would do flight operations at night.

BF:Were the coalition forces embedded together? Did you go with the "Brits" [British] or any of those [troops]?

JH:No, not at Al Kharj. Not [with] the F-16s. There might have been other forces there, I don't know, but not as far as we were concerned. We were logistics people. We were making sure all the logistics were there. It was interesting. The Al Kharj Base is out in the middle of nowhere. Out in the middle of nowhere are some long runways because of the heat. They tell me there are about fifty 00:42:00miles of runways; the runways are so long. They have great big hangars there ─ enormous hangars there. I asked what the hangars were for and they were for F-15s Saudi Air Force. That is the training base for [the] Saudi Air Force. In the middle of everything is a kind of pyramid looking thing, like the Luxor [Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada]. It looked just like that except the top was a little cut off. It looked like that. I asked, "What is that?" "You don't need to know, colonel." I said, "What do you mean I don't need to know? I see it. I want to know what it is." [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter]

JH:They said I had to wait until the embassy comes and [then to] ask the embassy if I could get a tour over there, if I had security clearance. I had top security clearance. I was sure some of the other commanders would like to go to see what that is. I thought it was a training facility. They told me that it was a top-secret facility. So the embassy came and I asked if we could take a tour ─ if they could arrange it. They said, "Yes." I was to give my information for the background check. If I passed the background check, I could go.

RB:Was it almost a concrete pyramid?

JH:It wasn't really concrete. It was steel and glass, just like the Luxor, just beautiful. It was just beautiful. We went over there; they finally [arranged] the tour. We went over there and they checked all of our identification again. You looked into the [biometric retinal scan] and [checked] our fingerprints. Then you [had] to go into security. You go in this little [room], like you see at the airports, where they have the radar. They have that and they have a gas that comes in. That can tell if you have any explosives on you or have been near any explosives. It can tell what kind of perfume you have on. Then you get to go to the security people and they, again, check your credentials. From there it is all secret. I can tell you some of it. You go down in elevators like in a missile silo. You go down in the elevator and it opens up into a city. You [could] live in there for two years without ever moving out of that place. It has shops in there. It has barbershops, theaters, it has pharmacies [and] it has 00:44:00food stores. It has everything like a city has.

RB:Wow!

JH:You go in one place and it is like NASA [United States National Aeronautics and Space Administration] with the big screens. You sit in there and you can see AWACS [Airborne Warning and Control System]. It shows all the targets. That is where they target. That is where the AWACS information comes in, right there. We [were able] to view all of that. They have a hospital in there. There is everything. A direct nuclear [bomb] wouldn't put it out. For two years, you [could] live underground. That is how [much material is] in there.

RB:It was for the Saudis?

JH:Saudis.

RB:Military?

JH:Yes, exactly. It was paid for by [the] United States and Great Britain. The Germans built it. We built that for them. It is ultra-modern. It is a Star Wars type [facility].

RB: That was twenty-five years ago.

JH:That was a long time [ago]. Now it is all changed. That is not what the other part of it is. They wouldn't show us the other part. Until this day, I am a 00:45:00little skeptical, but they said it is a true story. Whether it is or not, I don't know. It is still kind of a secret thing. You can take off underground, in formation, and clear the ground. The ground opens, and you can clear the ground. So runways are under the ground. They can't tell you are coming until you are gone.

RB:[Laughter] Oh, my gosh!

JH:They wouldn't let us see that. I said, "Come on, [fellows]." They said yes. The ground opens and the aircraft are airborne.

RB:Had they already [had] the F-16s by that point or did that come later?

JH:They were flying the F-15s Strike Eagles. They were flying the best.

RB:Are they getting some of the F-35s?

JH:I don't know if Saudi is getting any. I think they probably will be. They give them all the ultra-modern [equipment].

BF:They are actually. I read that in Naval Institute Proceedings. They are getting them.

JH:Are they? The Saudis have the money. Anyway, that was pretty interesting.

RB: I'll say, yes, that is.

JH:But as I say, it was [a] Star Wars type [facility].

RB:How long were you in Saudi?

JH:[I was there], off and on, for six months. We went back and forth, we continuously moved back and forth.

RB:Was the main operation [in] March [of] 1991?

JH:I can't remember the exact date. We came in [to] Bahrain and flew C-130s over to King Khalid [International Airport] and then into Riyadh. At Riyadh, we had cars.

JH:I had my car and I drove everywhere. It was neat. We would go back and forth to Bahrain. I hated Bahrain. Did they force you to drink water over there in Saudi when you were there?

RB:No.

JH:They did us. We had to drink two liters of water an hour.

RB:Really!

JH:We had to do that. They marked it off. They would follow us around with a big semi [filled] with distilled water, the good water. It was cold.

RB:[Was this] to make sure you weren't getting dehydrated or something?

JH:Yes. You could get deathly ill if you didn't keep your eye on the heat. I was in my air conditioned car. I wasn't outside, but they forced you to drink the water.

RB:[Laughter]

JH:At least in Riyadh, I would wear my flight suit and as hot as they get, I wasn't sweating. You go to Bahrain and it has the humidity from the ocean. You are continually wet. My flight suit was drenched. It made it hard to breathe. It was 90% or more humidity with the heat. It was horrible. But what a strange place; it really was a strange place. I wouldn't give you a dime for all that country in the world. I would much rather be at Vietnam than I would be in Saudi Arabia.

BF:Since you said you went all around the world in the 1980s, did you ever go to 00:48:00Panama or Grenada or those little adventures?

JH:No, I never went to South America. Basically we were, the Reserve Corps because of the F-4s, we were in Korea a lot. Osan [Korea] had the F-4s. We were in Korea a lot. I like Korea. Yes, I like Korea. I enjoyed Korea. Most of the time we were doing NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] TAC [Tactical] Evaluations in Europe.

RB:That is right. You said you liked Germany.

JH:I went to NATO War Air College at Oberammergau [Bavaria, Germany]. Have you ever heard of Oberammergau?

RB:Yes, in Bavaria?

JH:Bavaria. That is the city that was all painted in storybooks up in the Alps. That is where the NATO War College is, up in the Alps.

RB:That is great!

JH:And it's not very far from Fussen, which is Walt Disney's castle, Neuschwanstein [Castle]. It's not very far from there.

RB:Bavaria is a wonderful place.

JH:I was there for [the] NATO War College. It was unbelievably interesting. You had all of the people in all of the world, chiefs of staff and everything. They 00:49:00would come in and give us briefings.

RB: That would be interesting.

JH:[You know] what the most interesting part of that whole thing was? When the French were there we had to put earphones on because the French didn't speak English. We would go out and have coffee or a drink or a Danish [sweet roll]. We called it Danish there. They always had wonderful lunches for us there [and] snacks. They speak English. Not the French. The Belgians [and] even the Russians spoke English.

RB:[What about] the Germans?

JH:They all spoke English.

RB:But not the French!

JH:They wouldn't speak it; they wouldn't do it. I thought that was interesting. We talked to them out in the lounge and they would speak English to us, but it was just the French. But what a beautiful War College. The War College there was one of the highlights. It was wonderful. I took my family there and they [were able] to live in Bavaria in an old German-style home [with] the low ceilings.

RB:Was that like a one-year course?

JH:Yes. It was a beautiful place.

RB:How nice! No wonder you like Germany.

JH:Yes, I love it. I wouldn't have any problem living in Germany, not one bit. Ramstein [Air Force Base, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany] was wonderful. It was a [very] nice place. Sterling [Palmer], that [fellow] here, he was the commander out at Rhein-Main [Air Base, Frankfurt am Main, Germany] just down the road.

RB: Did you know him them?

JH:No, I didn't know Sterling.

RB:When did you retire from the Air Force?

JH:[In] 1994. I was up for general, but you had to have a position. There were no positions available. In my twenty-seven years, you had to have, because I had thirty-three years because of my Reserve and ROTC, and all that [time] counted so I had thirty-three years, but I actually only had twenty-eight [years]. If you are [a] full colonel, you can only go twenty-seven, twenty-eight years unless you make one-star [general]. So I was kind of glad. I liked it. I enjoyed 00:51:00it. I had a great time in the Air Force. I loved the Air Force. It was a good career. It really was fun.

RB:It sounds like it.

JH:Except for the missiles!

RB:[Laughter]

JH:You could not make me [do it again.] After we left, they got smart. They put in televisions and radios down there in the capsules. And they rotated the crews. They had three-man crews so you rotated after every eight hours topside. They had no problems after that. They made it livable after I left.

RB:Your timing in your twenties was a little bit off.

JH:A little bit off? Way off!

RB:What did you do after you retired from the Reserves?

JH:That is when I started flying. I flew Life Flight. [Life Flight is air and ground critical care medical transport serving the Pacific Northwest and Intermountain West.] I went up to Utah State University to teach. I started an aeronautics program, flight school and everything. I started all that. I didn't 00:52:00get along with my PhD [professor] because he said I had no credibility. I taught five classes and started the program. Because I didn't have a [doctorate degree], I had no credibility and fought with him continually. I didn't like him. SkyWest called and said they needed a safety officer and wanted to know if I would be interested. I said as long as they paid me what the University paid me. They said to come down and interview [and] they would pay me what the University paid me. They said they couldn't give me what their benefits were, but they didn't have those kinds of benefits. They [Utah State] gave me five percent of my salary every month. [SkyWest paid] only two percent. I said it was time to make a change so I came to work for SkyWest.

RB:That is out of St. George?

JH:Yes, [at their] corporate headquarters.

RB: You were their Safety ─?

JH:Flight Safety Manager.

RB:What did you do?

JH:Tried to keep pilots out of trouble. That was the big thing. I was the coordination with the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration]. They call it ABDR [Aircraft Battle Damage Repair]; it is a different acronym. What happens is pilots are normal people like everybody else. They make mistakes. When they make mistakes, if they are smart enough to tell you they made the mistake and write the report, it comes to me. Then once a week we met with the FAA and we would review the report. They called it sole source. If the FAA knew about it and I knew about it, then it was a non-sale source. That is a whole different world. Now the FAA is coming after you. When they come after you, I was their go-between. I didn't want any of my pilots thrown out of the cockpit, or fined and all this kind of crap. That is when I would go toe-to-toe with the FAA. [It] was my job to make sure the pilots were flying safe, that all the safety 00:54:00procedures [were followed].

RB:How many years were you at Utah State?

JH:[It was] ten [years] and ten years with SkyWest.

RB:When did you retire?

JH:Not too long ago, 2014 or 2015.

RB:When did you start this museum [Western Sky Aviation Warbird Museum, St. George Airport, St. George, Washington County, Utah]?

JH:[In] 2006.

RB:You were running this?

JH:[It was] in the old airport.

RB:That was right, up on the hill.

JH:It was in that little hangar, just this a-way. I bought another hangar, which is on the other side of the airport. I only had the red MiG [a Russian fighter aircraft]. A friend of mine gave it to me.

RB:Did you do that on the side while you were [working] full time with SkyWest?

JH:Yes.

RB:Why did you want to do the museum?

JH:That is what my wife keeps asking me.

RB:What do you tell her?

JH:I tell her, "If I die you can still sell it." She says it is not money in the 00:55:00bank and it is her retirement that I am spending. But it is sellable. When I die, she can do anything she wants with it. I think it is a good asset.

RB: Where did you get the money?

JH:[From] my dad.

RB:You inherited from your dad?

JH:My dad [had] died.

RB:The Navy officer?

JH:He was [in the] Navy. He retired [from the] Navy [and] he went to the Alaska Ocean Liner. He was the manager of the [Alaska Ocean Line], or something. I never thought my dad ─ well, I saw my dad probably five times in my life.

RB: It sounded like he wasn't a major part of your life.

JH:No, he wasn't. I never really knew my dad. I never knew he had a dime to his name and I didn't care.

RB:You didn't know him.

JH:He was sick and my stepsister [Michelle] asked my wife if she could come up and sit with him for a month while she [my step-sister] went to Florida to see her [children]. My wife said yes. She wasn't doing anything. She said if they paid her airline fare up there, she would gladly come and do it. She [had] more 00:56:00conversation with my dad than I ever had. He told her that he had some investments. On the ocean liner, he told them to fix something. They didn't do it and he tripped on it. They paid him a lot of money. I didn't know how much. Again, I only thought he had a normal amount, a few bucks. I didn't care anyway. He had the two stepchildren when he married and a half-sister, but I [couldn't] care less if he had any money. He [was very] sick. My stepsister called and said I should come up and see my dad that he wouldn't be around much longer. I said. "Okay. I can get on the airline because it didn't cost anything."

RB:[Laughter]

JH:So I flew up there. Sure enough, he wasn't doing well and I talked to him for a few minutes. That night he died [February 13, 2009].

RB:This was about what time frame?

JH:I can't remember.

RB:Early 2000s or earlier?

JH:No, it was later, early 2004 or 2005. No, it was after that, 2008 or 2009, because I was at SkyWest. I went up there and the executor of the [estate] ─ he didn't have any of us do it. He had a beautiful home up in Ketchikan [Ketchikan Gateway, Alaska], up on the hill where you could overlook the seaplanes and ocean liners. My stepsister was there. He had given that to her. Again, I wasn't smart enough. He had called me and told me he was going to give the house to [my] stepsister. I should have said to my dad that he had four [children] that he needed to think about. He could give that to her, but all four of us [children] own it. Then she could live in it all of her life as long as she wants, pay the upkeep, rent and utilities. When she dies, all four of us 00:58:00[would] own it, [but] I wasn't smart enough to tell him that. I just [told] my dad to do what he wanted. I wasn't happy about that anyway, not that I didn't want Michelle [step-sister] to have anything, but it was just a matter of that [was] the way he did it. My [half-sister] came unglued. She said she was blood and she was not. She said, "He would do that to me?" I told Leslie [my half-sister] that it wasn't her money to start with and she never knew her dad anyway.

RB:Who said that?

JH:My half-sister.

RB:So this was the daughter of his second wife. [Ruth Bruseau]

JH:She didn't want anything to do with it, so she gave that to her other grandparents. My other [paternal] grandparents raised her. Of course, there were the two stepchildren, who were good [children]. They were good people who I get along with. One of them is dead. Agent Orange killed him. [Agent Orange was a defoliant used during the Vietnam War] The gal still lives in Florida and we get along [very] well. But my stepsister [again he meant his half-sister] was livid about it. She was blood and they weren't. I didn't care. I wasn't the executor 00:59:00and I had no idea what money he had. The executor called me. He was a young [fellow]. He was a grandson, a step-grandson. He was schoolteacher, a nice [fellow, a very] honest person. He said he needed to get [the estate] probated. I said okay and asked how long it would take. Well, Alaska takes a long time. Wyoming takes a day. I said it shouldn't take that long because the will was written out and it was pretty plain. I had seen the will. Each one of us would get a fourth of the estate, whatever that was, except the house. That was given away. I didn't think [it would take] a year. He said that it was the law [in] Alaska. I told him I didn't know that, but I didn't think it was right. I wasn't expecting anything anyway.

He sent me a letter. He says we need to get together because they are going to distribute the money. I said, "What? You [are] going to send a check for $100?" He said that my dad was worth over a million dollars. That old bugger! He had the accident on the boat, he invested the money pretty smartly and had over a million dollars. Each one of us [received] $250,000.00. Michelle also got the house, plus the one-fourth which I thought was wrong. I always said she could have one or the other, but not both. No, it didn't work that way. She wasn't about to give in. I knew what she was going to do because she didn't like Alaska. She was going to sell the house and move to Florida where her [children] were. And that is exactly what she did. But did she offer any money to any of the [children]? Not a dime. Not a dime. My stepsister [again he means his 01:01:00half-sister] won't even speak her name. That was rotten on her part, too, because she knew that there were three other [children] who should have had a fourth-share of that property. But that was the way it was. So that is what did this, plus my wife's money. This is what built [the museum].

RB:First, you built [it] up?

JH:No, I bought this up [at] the old airport. I bought it from an airline pilot. He was selling it and I bought it.

RB:Then you moved it?

JH:Yes, I had to move this and the big hangar. The big hangar was donated to the museum. It was $150,000.00 to move that hangar. That is what it cost to move it. And to put all the asphalt in here, the cement and everything it was over $250,000.00 to move this [equipment] or more.

RB:You started this about 2006?

JH:[It was] up there [at] the old airport and we moved here when this [area] was viable. We have been here five years, six years, I can't remember whatever it is.

RB:[Did] you have this dream of creating this air museum?

JH:Not really. It just started with the MiG [Russian aircraft]. I have a MiG, so now what am I going to do with it?

RB:Where did you get the MiG?

JH:A friend of mine in California. He was dying of cancer and said he would like to have a museum have it. I said that I would start a museum and that is why I started it.

RB:Wow! Are you a 501(c)(3) organization?

JH:A 501(c)(3) organization. That is how I got the rest of the airplanes. The red MiG is mine. He gave it to me, so it is my airplane. The other planes [belong to] the museum. The other [items belong to] the museum. The hangar [belongs to] the museum, except [for] this one. This hangar really belongs to me. The big one belongs to the museum.

RB:That is an interesting story.

JH:Crazy, isn't it?

RB:Here you are [and] you have this museum.

JH:Now what do I do? I put up with my wife every day. She says why don't we sell this thing and move. She hates it here.

RB:Oh, no.

JH:She hates the heat. She doesn't love it. She is a farmer, with a ranch. We 01:03:00have a ranch up there in the country. For air conditioning up there, you open up the window. We have been up there. We went to Jackson [Wyoming] for a week, up in the mountains, and we came back to the ranch. She said she wasn't going home [to St. George], she was going to stay at the ranch. It was 80° most of the time at the ranch. Of course, in the winter, it is cold, miserable and a lot of snow. But she loves that.

RB:You could come down here. She loves that?

JH:I don't like the cold. I don't like the snow any more. I am not ever going to move, I am afraid. The only reason that she is really here is because her mother is in assisted living.

RB:Here in St. George?

JH:Yes. If she were gone, my wife would be gone because she won't live here. Now if I go with her, that is a different story, but she won't live here. She will go back to the ranch. I will have to go visit her. [Laughter]

RB:[Laughter] "Jack," thank you so much for telling your story.

JH:It was a crazy story!

RB: No, your career is very interesting.

JH:It has been different.

RB:It has. You have [had] some interesting [experiences] from the 1960s all the way to the present.

JH:Unlike the [young people] today, I worked every day of my life. It seemed like when I was old enough, [I worked] on a ranch, or doing other [jobs]. I worked for J.C. Penney in junior high. Every summer, I worked. I never was out [of a job], except when I was in school, I worked. I was never out of a job, ever.

RB:Your work ethic is based upon your whole life.

JH:My whole life ─ that is all I knew. And it was wonderful. I never wanted to be out of a job, because I had spending money in my pocket. I could put gas in my car. My grandparents, at the time, helped me buy my car. It was just the way it was. Today, you can't get [young people] to work. You can't get them to work.

RB:I have noticed that.

JH:My son [Shane Hunter or Trevor Hunter] is vice president of a corporation up in Salt Lake [City] and they can't find people to go to work. They can't find them.

RB:Different upbringing?

JH:I asked if he went over to the employment [office]. He said he had been over there a lot. You can't get blue-collar workers. You can get white-collar workers, but you can't get blue-collars. They won't work. They would rather take unemployment [compensation], food stamps and welfare. They ought to cut it out. They need to cut that out completely. If you are eligible and able to work, you need to work. If you go downtown, you see every place downtown here, [with signs for] help wanted. Why do we want to pay these [people] to sit on their butt and do nothing? That is not right. That is not right.

RB:It makes no sense.

JH:I didn't do it. They don't need to do it. They need to get out and work. But you can't get them to work.

RB:[This] concludes our interview.