Interview with Clive Milton and Joan (Palmer) Burgess

Clive Milton and Joan (Palmer) Burgess were interviewed on July 18, 2016 at their home at the Mountain Meadows in Washington County, Utah by Kelton Hafen and Heber Jones. They related their life experiences.

KH:Clive, tell how old you are, your birthday and where you were born.

CB:I was born in St. George [on] February 25, 1927. I am [nearly] ninety years old.

KH:Give your father's name.

CB:Milton Burgess was my father.

KH:Did he have a middle name?

CB:No, not that I ever knew. Clara (Cannon) Burgess was my mother.

KH:Okay. Let's talk a minute about your mother. Tell about her history, her family.

CB:She was one of thirty-two children. David H. Cannon had three wives and [Rhoda Knell Cannon] was the [child of his third wife.

KH:What do you remember about your mother? How do you feel about your mother?

CB:She [didn't] have [any] problems that I ever heard [about]. Somebody [who] moved up here and spent the summer without electricity [and] without running water had to be pretty strong. She lived here all her married life doing that.

KH:Do you want to say anything about your grandparents? Did you ever know them?

CB:I [only] knew my grandfather [David H. Cannon] and grandmother [Rhoda Knell Cannon] on my mother's side. I didn't know him personally. On my dad's side, I only knew my grandfather [Adam Burgess].

HJ:Follow your Burgess line back.

JB:[Laughter] "Cindy" [(Burgess) Alldredge] isn't here. She is the one that [does the genealogy in our family. "Cindy" is our oldest child and only daughter. She lives in Snohomish, Washington].

HJ:There were two Burgess families that came to Pine Valley [Washington County, Utah. Which one did you belong to? [William Burgess was my great-grandfather.]

CB:Joan, tell them. [Abram Burgess was my grandfather.]

JB:The William Burgess family.

HJ:William, okay. The next generation down was Harrison, Melanethon and William, Jr. Which one of those do you belong to?

JB:I wish "Cindy" was here. She just did a reunion. William Burgess was his line. His grandpa, what was your dad's father's name?

CB:Abraham "Abe".

JB:Abraham Burgess. The [Burgess'] in Pine Valley had a sawmill. [Inaudible]

KH:The "Abe" Burgess that lived up the canyon ─

CB:He was my dad's brother.

KH:["Abe"] was your dad's brother. I didn't realize that they were [brothers].

HJ:How did you come to get into the Meadows here? How did they come about?

CB:My grandfather [Abraham] and [Joseph] "Joe" Burgess homesteaded the ranch down here. They lived here and dad worked for them. He [Milton] married and homesteaded this and "Abe" homesteaded the one down below, where the [Mountain 00:04:00Meadow Massacre] monument is down there. Joe bought my grandfather out. He [Abraham] moved to Santa Clara Fields [Washington County, Utah]. Uncle Joseph stayed here and went to Pine Valley. Then he sold to the [George] Lytles.

HJ:What did Lytle do from there? [The Lytle family still owned the original homestead in 2016.]

CB:Lytles ran it all the time until right now. When did you buy the Lytles out? Five years ago?

JB:About six [years ago[ when we sold that piece of land to The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. [Inaudible] [We sold to the church nineteen acres of our land for Phoebe Lytles inheritance of twenty acres that was connected to our land.]

HJ:My grandfather [Hyrum Ellis Jones] helped Lytle homestead in the Meadows. What did they do there?

CB:They built. They went up and homesteaded a full section. They got a grazing permit and had to fence it. That is what your grandfather did there.

HJ:Okay. What about my other grandfather [Thomas Punter Cottam] [inaudible]?

CB:I don't know much about that. They were on the other side of the road when they had their home up in there. But it is gone.

HJ:What about the Leavitts?

CB:They were on the same one.

HJ:The same place?

CB:I don't know. It was before my time. There has been too many people changing hands on that ground up there for me to tell you anything about it.

HJ:That is where [Floyd G,] Ence [family] are now?

CB:[It is] where Ence used to be. The Burgess', [Edward and Keith], own it now.

KH:Tell about your boys buying that [ground].

CB:Ed and Keith [Burgess] had a little extra money and they decided that they 00:06:00wanted to buy some ground. So they bought this ground from Floyd [G.] Ence.

KH:Yes.

CB:After Floyd died, I guess Floyd was dead. They bought it from Rod Ence.

JB:Rod Ence, yes.

CB:[It] left about twenty acres [for a] subdivision. They decided to buy that subdivision out. Ed bought it. Keith did not buy the subdivision, the upper end of [the ground].

KH:About how many acres did they buy from the Ence family?

CB:I would say over 500 [acres].

KH:Yes.

JB:He raises hay on it and runs cows.

CB:And deer.

JB:Yes, without the deer [inaudible] hay. [Laughter] Ed has a built cute little pond and recreation area up there. They camp and let fathers and sons come to camp for ward outings.

KH:Are they able to get some Deprivation Permits [because] of deer using that 00:07:00[area]? Do you know.

CB:I don't know much about what they do, "Kelt." That is the best thing to say.

KH:Okay.

CB:[Inaudible]

HJ:Tell a little bit about Dan Sill.

CB:I don't know anything about him, but he had an old home here [as you] come into [our] place. The foundation of the home is still down there. I could find it, but nobody else could.

HJ:Is that on your property now?

CB:Yes, it is right where I have the alfalfa patch.

KH:He [Dan Sill] never married? My understanding was he was an old bachelor. Do you know?

CB:That is all I ever heard [about] him, an old "bach."

KH:You have Dan Sill Hill here. You have the Dan Sill Canyon down on the [Arizona] Strip. I assume he must have been around the [area] quite a bit.

CB:They named Dan Sill Hill for him because he [tipped] a wagon [over] going around that hill one year. Maybe you have heard that.

KH:I didn't know that story.

HJ:Yes, I have heard that story. He came out here, originally, with one of the trappers. Other than that, I don't know anything.

KH:Was he a [trapper] then?

HJ:I don't think so.

CB:[Inaudible]

KH:Would he have been one of the original white settlers in this particular area?

HJ:I would think so.

CB:He was the only original one in this [area]. Nobody else was here until after 00:09:00Uncle Joe, "Abe" and Jacob Hamblin had the Meadows over there.

KH:Yes.

CB:I don't know of anybody in here before those [fellows].

HJ:Tell a little bit about where the roads went.

CB:It is funny that you [would] ask that. [What] do you want to believe? [Laughter]

HJ:We will take your version!

CB:[Laughter] You can follow the old wagon road down through the [area]. 00:10:00According to the books, they changed the location of [the road] and it moved right up to where Dan Sill had his home. Then it went south through the alfalfa. I don't know when they changed that road, but they moved it to come up around where Lytles place is now. That was the old road that went to Pinto, Enterprise and everywhere [in Washington County, Utah]. After the massacre they moved half the road from where the massacre took place and went around it. They said there is [inaudible] and they had to move it. They moved it down to where the old road used to go [inaudible].

HJ:Did the original road go over further to the west?

CB:Yes, the one we used all of my life, it was to the west.

HJ:Was the first monument they built on the road?

CB:It was down where the battle took place, not where the massacre was.

JB:[Inaudible]

HJ:What is your take on various versions of the massacre story?

CB:[Laughter] Joan, tell him!

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:I think, maybe, they did wrong. I think if they had killed them when the battle first started, I could understand it, but I don't see anybody having to go down when they had their guns taken away from them and then turning them loose. I don't believe in slaughtering and that is what I think happened.

HJ:What is your version on the monuments? Why did they tear this one down or move it?

CB:I think Brigham Young didn't want anybody to know about it, [so] he moved them all. The only one that they have ever said anything about is the one that is on my property. You can't preach in any of your books, maybe the one down where the massacre started. They talk a little bit about that, but there has never been anything else on the other monuments that the [United States] Army came in and tore down.

HJ:Tell about ─.

JB:Have you read Juanita [Leone (Leavitt) Pulsipher] Brooks version [The Mountain Meadows Massacre] of what really happened?

CB:I don't know what you mean.

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:You can still see the rocks and formation there [where the monument is that the [United States] Army made for the men and boys].

KH:That is just barely on the side of the fence that the church bought, isn't it?

CB:It is down 100 yards in the ground that the church bought.

KH:Yes.

CB:Now, you have this man who found the new burial. I guess you have heard of him.

KH:No, I haven't.

CB:[Laughter] There is a [fellow], I think, writing a book, so he found [that] the bodies weren't where the monument that I know [about] is ─ it was on up the road another one-half mile. He found the rock carrion where all the people were buried under it. They are going to have to go in there with backhoes, dig it all up and find all the bones that are still there.

KH:Do you believe his version?

CB:Oh, yes, I really believe that! [Laughter] In about 1937 the CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] were in here and did a lot of construction work in the whole 00:14:00[area]. They built rock dams across all the washes. This is just a big rock dam that he has found up there. I had a man come here and took him up and showed him. Then he got some friends of his and has a, I would call it a metal detector, only it is a bone detector, and they came down and run that for two days and never found a bone. Yes, they found one little coyote bone. [Laughter] Big carnage! That is all they found. That was last summer.

KH:The upper monument ─

CB:Of the women and [children].

KH:─ of the women and [children], do you believe that monument is in the right place?

CB: Within 100 yards.

KH:Do you? I thought there was too much distance between the two places.

CB:There was supposed to have been over one mile. Juanita's book tells you that and that is about what that is.

KH:Okay.

CB:Where the ponds are, up in Cottam's, that is where the monument used to be, [the one] that was sitting there that was torn down. Your books will tell you, 300 feet from the Continental Divide is where the women and [children] were killed.

KH:Yes.

CB:[Do] you know where the Continental Divide is?

KH:Well, I am pretty familiar with it, yes.

CB:It is right up there where the new monument is that they built.

KH:Yes.

HJ:So by and large, you pretty much agree with has been written?

CB:Pretty much, yes.

HJ:Okay. [Do] you think the locations are about right?

CB:Yes.

[RECORDER TURNED OFF]

HJ:When I was a little [boy], your dad used to come through town with a rubber tire wagon and had those horses tuned up so they pranced right along at a pretty good steady pace. Was that his sole transportation?

CB:No, he had an old Dodge car that we drove from St. George to here in the 00:17:00spring and left it parked out under the trees until we went back in the fall.

HJ:He would rather use the horses than the car?

CB:The car wasn't very dependable in those days, was it? He had to have money for gas. [Laughter] Let's put it that way.

KH:When you first remember coming up here as a [boy], did you come in a car or in a team and wagon?

CB:I have made quite a few [trips] in the later years. When I was younger we would come in the old Dodge car. The day after school let out, we would [get] in the car and come to the Meadows. We would stay until the day before school started [in the fall]. We might have gone fishing twice and once or twice to Central [Washington County, Utah] or Enterprise to visit relatives during the summer. Other than that, we never went anywhere. Dad would go to town to cut and rake the hay and I would stay up here and take care of the farm while he was down there.

HJ:We used to jump on the back of his wagon going into town and ride clear 00:18:00across to the other side. When he slowed down enough, we would jump off and walk home. He didn't even know we were there most of the time.

CB:I think he knew, but he didn't care! [Laughter]

HJ:Well, that may be!

CB:I think there is a ─.

KH:When he travelled back and forth to do the haying in the St. George Fields, he did it with his team and wagon.

CB:The only thing he had.

KH:Okay.

HJ:He had those horses tuned up so they had a steady gait.

KH:Everything you did up here, you did with teams, right?

CB:Until after I [was discharged from] the [United States] Navy.

KH:What year was that?

CB:[It was in] 1945, wasn't it, Joan?

HJ:Tell a little about your Navy career.

CB:Didn't have much of one! I was only in the Navy one year, one month and twenty-eight days. The day boot camp [was out, I was [assigned] to an aircraft carrier. We hauled airplanes in the Pacific until [World] War [II] ended. When the war ended they converted us to a troop transport, bunks all over the deck. We hauled troops back [to the United States] until I went around the [inaudible] the last of December. [Inaudible]

JB:Where?

CB:In Boston, Massachusetts.

KH:How come they let you out early?

JB:The war was over.

CB:The war was over and I had lost a brother. The folks pulled a few strings and got me out a little early, but maybe only a couple of months.

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:Dad wasn't in the best of health.

KH:Tell about your brother and his war experiences. Give his full name.

CB:My brother was Robert Knell [Burgess]. He joined the [Utah] National Guard in St. George after the war started. They fought all the way up to the Philippines. 00:21:00He came home two weeks before I enlisted in the Navy. We went to Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake County, Utah] and he tried to get me in the [United States] Merchant Marines, [but] the openings were frozen. So I came home. [While] in high school a bunch of us joined the Navy.

KH:Who were some of the [fellows] who joined with you?

CB:Eldon Hafen tried too, but he was color blind and he couldn't go. I can't tell you many of the others. There was [Herbert] "Herb" Bentley, [Clark] McMullin [and] Van Hafen. [Inaudible]

KH:Was Bob Covington one of them?

CB:Bob Covington was another one.

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:Did you all go through training together?

CB:No. Just a week before I was to go to Salt Lake [City], my brother died. He was guarding prisoners of war in Tule Lake, California. He died there.

KH:What was the cause of his death?

CB:Cerebral hemorrhage, they said. But how do you know. You don't know. They gave me a leave of absence for awhile. That is why Louie Lundin didn't enlist with us when we did the first time, but he did the next time. Louie and I went through boot camp together in San Diego [California].

KH:Any experiences while you were in the Navy, that you can think of [to] tell about?

JB:Tell them about the typhoon.

CB:We outran one typhoon, pretty near, anyway. We were on the aircraft carrier on the top deck, quite high. We were coming over and the Army [fellows] with their ammunition bunks [were] right along underneath the aircraft carrier flight deck. We had Army officers in there and we were hauling them home. We got into 00:24:00the water so bad [that] the ship took forty-five degree list one way, then a forty-three and a forty-two then it straightened up. Before long we could hear these [fellows] screaming in one of the little rooms up there. It had gone over so far that it hit and tore the bottom of the room open and tipped it back this way. The two [fellows] were penned against the wall. We had to use a cutting torch to cut those [fellows] out of there in the night during this typhoon. I remember that.

KH:Do you know if they lived?

CB:It didn't hurt them. It just penned them back against the wall. There was plenty of room, but they couldn't get out. We went down through the Panama 00:25:00Canal, up to Boston and tore the ship to pieces.

HJ:There is a legend about the Burgess family being [of] German origin and fighting in the Revolutionary War as Hessians. Are you familiar with that?

JB:My daughter [Cynthia Burgess] can tell you everything about it. She has been back there [inaudible]. She is really into genealogy. She is on a mission now and has been for three years where she answers the telephone in her home [helping people locate their ancestors].

HJ:So it is [information] that has been passed down through your family?

JB:Yes.

HJ:Okay. Let's spend a little time with your history in St. George.

KH:Some of the very earliest memories you have, regardless of how important you 00:26:00think they are, tell some of the [events] you remember.

HJ:Where did you live in St. George?

CB:Where Smith's [Food and Drug Store] is now.

JB:Tell them how your dad [went] to work in the fields. That was pretty interesting to me, it might not have been to you.

CB:We had the farm in the Santa Clara Fields. Everyday dad got the team and wagon and rode down to the Clary Fields, rode [worked] the farm all day and then turned around and rode back to town. Mom stayed home and took care of us all the time. He was gone every day. We had the cows down there [in the winter].

JB:May I add something? Clive wasn't very old and his dad always saved him apiece of his lunch and brought it home to him. That didn't mean anything to him, but that tickled me. I thought that was cute.

HJ:How do you remember old Highway [91]? What was located on there?

CB:There was a little old hotel and store within a half-block of Main [Street] in my younger days. That is up where Smith's [Food and Drug Store] is now.

HJ:Do you remember who ran [the store]?

CB:No, there has been too many people. I can't remember.

JB:I can remember. [Inaudible]

CB:The road up to here was more interesting. We used to have to go through town over to the [Middleton] Tunnel, up past the dump, up pretty near to where the 00:28:00City Reservoir used to be, then turn and go over down into Diamond Valley [Washington County, Utah] and up that way.

KH:What do you remember about that Black Gulch that you crossed?

CB:That wasn't as bad as the rough road between there and Diamond Valley. Those rocks were big. Do you remember going on that [road] where they were very big? [Laughter]

KH:Yes.

HJ:Do you remember where the Milne Truck Line headquarters was when you were living in St. George?

KH:Was it up half a block north of the [St. George] Tabernacle on the east side?

CB:Yes.

HJ:Do you remember anything about Bland's Market?

CB:Yes. It was across the street from [Ronald] Nelson's Skating Rink on the corner.

HJ:Okay. You are the first [person] that I have interviewed that remembers Bland's Market.

CB:I'll be darned!

KH:I have been in there lots of times. I remember the Blands. They had, it seems like, a son and a daughter that were just a little older than me. They would be somewhere near your age. Do you remember them, Clive?

CB:Delores [was the girl]. I can't tell you the boy's name. There was another girl. One of [the girls] married the Hanson [boy]. What was his name?

KH:I don't know.

CB:One was a tall girl and the other one was shorter and wore glasses. Ralph 00:30:00Bland was the boy, wasn't he?

KH:I believe it was Ralph. That sounds right to me.

HJ:You are the first [fellows] who knew anything about Blands!

KH:[Laughter]

JB:I never heard of them.

KH:They were gone before you ever got here.

HJ:They had kind of a black market there. You could buy [items] that you didn't need [to use ration] stamps.

JB:That was when they had rationing.

KH:[Laughter]

HJ:They would have chewing gum when nobody had else it ─ that sort of thing. What is your take on the atomic fallout?

CB:We washed the dust off of our face one night and day. Didn't we, mom?

JB:They used to drive the cows to the field [in town from the ranch] and park half way.

CB:Right there where we live now.

JB:Yes. I would take my lunch and our oldest daughter [Cynthia], sit there and watch it go off. She has thyroid problems ever since. She hasn't actually [had] 00:31:00cancer from it, but still she gets notices to have her thyroid checked. [Inaudible]

CB:But the dust [inaudible]. It hit us right in Diamond Valley. We could see it up over the hills all the way to Central.

JB:We didn't have [inaudible]. It wasn't going to hurt us. They told us that.

KH:Do you think it had an effect on any of the wildlife?

CB:Two horses, "Kelt." [In] those days, you didn't know what was what.

KH:Tell about some of your neighbors when you were up here. Who were [they]? 00:32:00Where were they located here in the Meadows?

CB:[The George] Lytles were the only neighbors we had. They were down [on] Lytles place. Nobody else lived up here.

KH:How about "Abe"?

CB"He was too far away and he didn't get that [ground] until later years.

KH:Okay.

CB:M. Cox bought that for him.

KH:Oh, did he?

CB:Yes.

KH:Tell about the old man, George H. [Lytle]. What do you remember about him?

CB:He was on a dead run everywhere he went on horseback, he never walked. If it rained here at the Meadows, inside of a week he either had his cows from Barclay [Nevada] or Big Plains [Washington County, Utah] brought in here and added to 00:33:00his herd of cows he already had here. You could always tell.

KH:Tell about his characteristics that you remember.

CB:He was a loner. You never saw him. He never came around. His wife and my mother were partners. Mom would either go down there or she would walk up here at least three days a week.

KH:They were very close.

CB:Very close.

JB:This is May [Lytle]?

CB:No, "Luttie." [Her name was Lucinda Lytle and she was called "Lut" or "Luttie."]

KH:Tell some of the stories you have heard about him.

CB:I haven't heard many stories about him.

KH:Do you remember Andy [Lytle], Tone [Lytle] and Ez [Lytle] when they were on the place and you were pretty young?

CB:Yes, but you never communicated with anybody. Me, especially, [because] I was so much younger than anybody. Lytles had a spring up above here about a mile. One of them would have to come up or else we would fix the ditch. It was all open water. They would have a shovel up there. They would ride a horse up. Or every time we would go up we would have to put the water in the ditch so they could bring it down. They had a pond down here where I have the alfalfa patch. 00:35:00That water would run in there and they would take the water out and run it in an open ditch.

KH:Your family never did live here on the ranch year round?

CB:Never did. You couldn't ─ no power, no water.

KH:Nothing.

CB:There was a spring right over by the house [where] we had to walk 100 yards to get a bucket of water to take in the house. That was the only water we had, what we got from there.

HJ:Did "Abe" have a house down on this homestead?

CB:Yes.

HJ:Where was it located?

CB:Where those big trees are.

HJ:Just east of the monument?

CB:Where the big cottonwoods are was "Abe's" homestead, right in the middle of the monument. Then he moved to Central.

HJ:Did he raise his family there?

CB:They never lived there after I was born, that I ever knew. He raised them over in Central and in St. George.

KH:Tell about your deer hunting experiences here. Did you ever have people come in and pay you for taking them on hunts?

CB:Dad always had hunts. You tell them that story about dad and that letter.

JB:The [letter] came from California. There was no address up here. He got his mail in town. One of [Clives] mother's brother's ran the [United States] Post Office [in St. George]. There was a letter that came. It [was addressed], "There 00:37:00is a man behind the plow thirty-five miles north of Central." He brought it to his dad.

KH:[Laughter]

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:Yes.

HJ:What did you do for the city [St, George] when you worked [there]?

CB:I started working [at] the cemetery. Then I was over the cemetery and the [city] parks for about thirty-five or forty years.

KH:Was that your only job besides the ranch and the farm? Or did you do other work?

CB:I worked in two different service stations.

KH:Tell about them.

CB:When we [were] first married, Joan ran the Premium Motel and I pumped gas [at] the Premium Oil [Service Station].

JB: We had one room at the top of the motel and had to go downstairs to [use] the bathroom. [Inaudible]

CB:I worked for [Vinal] Loraine Cox for quite a few years.

KH:At McCoards.

JB:And at the dairy.

CB:I ran the dairy for two years.

KH:Was all of this after you were married?

CB:I never worked before I was married. I went to school and helped dad.

KH:Tell about how you and Joan met and decided to marry.

CB:Joan, you tell that story.

JB:[I] and two of my cousins came here, your wife, and Mildred ─.

KH:Tell their full names.

JB:Joan (Palmer) [Burgess], Peggy (Nielson) [Hafen] and Mildred (Wright) [Seitz] were three cousins [who grew up] in Blanding [San Juan County] Utah. When we graduated from high school we came to [St. George] to go to Dixie College. That is when the college was on the old campus. I had a scholarship. Peggy and Mildred's folks paid for them. We stayed in the basement apartment of an old pioneer house when we first [arrived]. They tore that [building] down and the three of us moved to another apartment on Tabernacle Street. It was one room and upstairs. In fact, Spilsbury Mortuary [inaudible].

KH:It was north of you, actually.

JB:I worked at Rex Nelson's Soda Fountain. During the lunch break at the college I worked where they [served] lunch. I ate dinner there and went to the fountain and had a sandwich for supper there. I would get off [work] at 10:00 [p. m.]. That isn't where I met you. We met up at the other place.

CB:What other place?

KH:Was it at Shirl Riddle's College Cove?

JB:No.

CB:No.

JB:You tell them. I don't remember.

CB:Church's ice cream and hot dogs, next to O. P. Skaggs.

KH:Churchs, okay.

JB:That is where I first met him. Who introduced us?

CB:Peggy's sister.

JB:Peggy's sister [Erma Neilson] who was going to school [at Dixie College].

KH:Was she here when you girls were?

CB:She came here when the girls came here to get them established.

KH:So you [were] acquainted real quick!

JB:That isn't [when] I came. I had to be here early to go to work [because] I had a job. [Inaudible] I was in Moab [Grand County, Utah] at the time. My folks had moved to Moab. McConkies were running a river boat or something and I rode down with them. [Wayne Russell McConkie] was teaching at the college. That is how I got here.

CB:But where did you live when you came down?

JB:I lived with Delsine Laney's mom and dad for about a week. I knew Delsine; she had a [married] sister who lived in Blanding. She came there and explained [about Dixie College] so I lived in their home so I could go to work before we got into our apartment [inaudible]. Mildred's brother [Lamar Wright] also came 00:42:00to college to play basketball.

CB:Yes.

KH: Lamar [Wright].

JB:Mildred was a second cousin. Her mother's dad was my dad's brother. [Laughter] My dad was a [inaudible]. [Inaudible] from a polygamist family.

HJ:Any polygamists in your background, Clive?

CB:My grandfather had three wives.

HJ:You are talking about the Cannons now.

CB:Cannon. The other [side] is Fergusons. I have never heard of them having any.

KH:Were you and Clive married before you graduated from college?

JB:I only went two quarters.

KH:You only went two quarters and then you were married?

JB:Yes. [Inaudible]

CB:We were engaged in December and married in April.

KH:In December of 1950?

JB:Yes.

KH:I didn't realize that you had gone together that long.

JB:[Inaudible] Yes, we did. We stayed at [inaudible] after that. I think she told his brothers and sisters, "Why the heck did she come to St. George if she was going to get married." [Laughter]

KH:So you only went two quarters at Dixie College?

JB:Yes.

KH:I thought you had gone at least a year. Let's talk about your children. Start 00:44:00with "Cindy" and work down. Tell something about them and what they do

JB:We had five children, a girl and four boys. [Cynthia] "Cindy" married Michael ["Mike"] Alldredge who was born and raised here in St. George. He went to school to be an electrician so he does electrical work.

CB:He worked for the O K Tire shop [for Eldon and Kelton Hafen].

JB:He went on his [LDS] mission to the state of Washington.

KH:Was that before [his] marriage?

JB:[Yes,] before they married. He is five years older than "Cindy." When he came home from his mission he talked it over with us. We told him that she was too 00:45:00young, to wait a year. He kind of dated her off and on. She was still nice to him. They married and moved up there [to the state of Washington] and he got a contract to work for a big electrical company.

KH:Where was this?

JB:It was up in Kirkland, Washington. They had five children, a boy, three girls and a baby boy when they moved. They have been up there for thirty years and never moved back. [Laughter]

KH:Do they have any intentions of moving back?

JB:Oh, yes. When they left, they were only going to stay a year or two and come back, but it has never worked out. They would love to now, but that is home to their [children]. The youngest son said, "We never went on vacation anywhere but hot Dixie. Never went anywhere else in my life." [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

JB:They haven't been too happy about coming to Dixie on vacation. They have two 00:46:00married [children], six grandchildren [and] three children [who] are not married. They all have good jobs and seem pretty happy. "Mike" was here a couple of weeks ago. "Mike" can't stand to not be busy. He put in new steps out there for us and did some electrical [jobs] that needed to be done. [Inaudible] "Cindy" puts [in] four or five hours a day with her mission [duties].

KH:What is the nature of the mission? What do they call it?

JB:It is family research. They think they are calling Salt Lake [City]. She gets calls from Tokyo and all over the world. [Inaudible] She is training people now. She tells them what to do. She really knows what she is doing. She has to put in 00:47:00so many hours a day. [Inaudible]

KH:[Joseph] "Joe" [Burgess] is next.

JB:Why don't you tell about "Joe?" He doesn't like to talk. "Joe" and "Cindy" were just fifteen months apart, so I had two babies on my hands. "Joe" married a girl from Hurricane [Washington County, Utah], Beverley Hawkins. About the time they married, Beverley and I bought a little sewing shop, [The Sewing Bee], across from Liberty Hotel.

KH:Liberty Hotel.

JB:Across from the Liberty Hotel. We ran that for five years and "Joe" was working for Scott Hirschi as a plumber. Scott wanted to open a shop in Cedar 00:48:00City [Iron County, Utah] so Scott sent "Joe" and "Bev" to open that shop in Cedar City. They have stayed there ever since. They couldn't have a family. They tried and

tried and finally she was pregnant with twins. They were so happy about that. She carried them only five and one half months. They were a boy and a girl and lived about an hour and a half and they died. She had four [children] after that. They have four living [children] and they are all married. They all live in Cedar [City] and are all in business together. They own motels all over the country.

KH:Tell how he had done financially.

JB:Very well!

CB:He has twenty-five motels all over Utah.

JB:[And in] Idaho, Texas, Nevada ─ everywhere! They built one [inaudible] in 00:49:00St. George. They own about five in St. George and they own six in Cedar [City]. They are building one in Kanab [Kane County, Utah] right now, two in Mesquite [Nevada]. They have a daughter and three sons and they are all involved.

CB:He was the mayor of Cedar [City].

JB:He was the mayor for four years. He [was] sick and couldn't run [for mayor] any more. He has had pancreas problems and thought it was cancer, but it wasn't.

KH:Tell about The [Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] Temple they are building in Cedar City.

JB:They have been called as missionaries for that temple. From the time it started they had to be there every day until the [building] is [completed]. They are the only missionaries around who have to wear boots, hard hats and Levis. 00:50:00[Laughter] They are really enjoying and have a lot of people come [by]. They take [the visitors] around the grounds. It includes [inaudible]. I think they told me there are [inaudible] wards and three or four stakes. Nearly every Sunday they go to one of these places as the temple missionaries. [Inaudible]

It has been kind of hard on "Bev" because she was going to lose those [children]. [Inaudible] They have thirteen grandchildren. After he was the 00:51:00mayor, [inaudible]. [Inaudible] He lived and made it through. He just wasn't his time. They love their mission and think it is great.

KH:How old is he now?

JB:He is sixty-two [years old].

KH:Is Keith next?

JB:No [Edward]

KH:Is Keith next?

JB:No [Edward] "Ed" [Burgess] is next.

KH:Let's go with "Ed."

JB:"Ed" joined the [Utah] National Guard and did his training in Oklahoma. They went to the church down there. He wrote home once, "We went up the mountain for 00:52:00a picnic. Guess what [how high] the mountain was? A fifty-foot hill!" [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

JB:He [continued], "I laughed about it!" He married Laurie Flowers. They have two children. He works in construction. Where did he work first? You tell me. I don't remember.

CB:He worked for Ence [at] their gravel crushing operation. He bought them out and [had] his own construction company, Quality Development [Construction].

KH:Did he ever work for "Buck" [Flowers, his father-in-law]?]

CB:No. Keith worked for "Buck" a little bit, but "Ed" never did.

KH:Okay.

CB:"Buck" was in building and "Ed" was in the other end of it, more in construction, getting ready to put a house [together].

JB:Laurie is a real estate person. They buy a lot of land and she sells it [inaudible]. She sells homes, too. Their son and daughter are involved in their business. They are also [inaudible]. They are doing very well. Ed and "Lori" own a home at Mountain Meadows.

KH:Do they ever stay in it?

JB:They try to, but they are just too busy. They leave St. George after dark [and] go back to town early. They did come up yesterday, spent the weekend and we saw them for a few minutes. But we don't see them very often.

CB:They were there last night.

JB:Were they? They bring two cars because she leaves after him.

KH:Who is next?

JB:Keith [Burgess] is.

KH:Tell about Keith.

JB:[Keith] married Ila Kay Bowler from Veyo [Washington County, Utah]. They have three girls. Two of them are married. The youngest [girl] is not married yet. [Inaudible]

CB:Kolob Construction. [Inaudible]

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:No.

JB:[Keith] works for "Joe" in Cedar [City]. Joe owned the plumbing shop for many years. [Inaudible] He bought a curb machine and lays curbs and gutters. The boys 00:55:00kind of work together. Keith lays curb and gutter [inaudible]. They [Keith and Ila] bought the Bigelow Ranch [from the] Dick Bowler family two years ago. The ranch was known as the Bigelow Ranch until the Bowler's bought it. [They have a second home on the ranch also.]

KH:Bigelow?

JB: [Inaudible] They have a nice home there.

KH:Is he the only one of your sons who is interested in cattle?

JB:Yes, he has taken over [inaudible]. [Inaudible] He is a busy [fellow] and runs his business, too. Mark [Burgess] is our youngest. He married Katherine 00:56:00Keyes. [Mark] went to school in Cedar City and took a special class in Arizona for a year. They had two little girls at the time. His wife is a beautician [inaudible].

KH:What was he specializing in school?

JB:In business.

KH:Just business.

JB:He came back and started building homes.

CB:And went in partners with Keith.

JB:Went in partners with Keith and they built homes. They [Keith and Mark] split up because Keith [started his own cement business]. They have four girls and 00:57:00three are married. One is still in school.

KH:Clive, you [haven't] told anything about your younger life. Tell what you remember from when you were young up until you joined the Navy. Some of your experiences and what [your] life was like.

CB:I didn't have experiences. I didn't do [anything]. You laugh, but I am serious.

JB:He won't tell anybody. He was on a horse from the time he was tiny. Up here every summer. Rode a lot. Helped his dad with the deer hunts.

CB:I will have to tell this story. It is kind of humorous. We were out goofing off one night and we decided to go steal some watermelons.

KH:Who was with you?

CB:There was Albert Burgess, Marvin Woodbury and Alvin Hardy. We went down on Temple Hill, which is right at the Temple. Out in the fields there was a [fellow] from out of town going to [Dixie] College [who] had a watermelon patch. We went down in the patch. There were not any homes around. There was one home just north of the watermelon patch. All of a sudden we looked up and the lights came on in that house. So we took off a running! One [fellow] was on a bike. Another one had two watermelons under his arms. I had one [melon] under my [arm]. And we took off running! I got down to where Judge [Leroy Henderson] Cox had his corral. I laid down in there and waited. Nobody showed up so I ate my 00:59:00watermelon and I went home.

KH:[Laughter]

CB:The next morning was Sunday and I was in church. All of us were out there laughing and talking. All of a sudden my mom came out and she had [Sheriff] Antone Prince with her. Antone said, "Did you go down and steal some watermelons last night?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Okay." Mom said, "Don't take him to jail now. We will see that they pay for it." He said, "Alright. It will cost you $2.50 or you can go spend a night in jail." I paid the $2.50 and I was happy. Now you can tell them who I stole [the melon] from, Joan.

JB:It was Arlen Cox, Joe [inaudible] father.

KH:Oh! He was down going to college and [grew] a patch of melons to help with expenses].

CB:Right about where your house is, Kelton.

JB:[Inaudible] Clive stealing watermelons [inaudible].

CB:That is about the only thing that ever happened.

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:Were you involved in the turk-Holt that chicken ─.

CB:No, your brother [Eldon Hafen] was the culprit there, not me.

KH:I thought you were probably with him.

CB:No. I missed it! [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

CB:I had something else to do that night.

JB:He didn't tell me this story. You probably don't like to tell it, but it really touched me. When they were [young] they used to [ride the back of] the [St. George] trash wagon [driven by Laef Hall] and go up to the city pond [where the trash was dumped]. [Clive and friends went swimming and Clive] about 01:01:00drowned. [Mr. Hall pulled him out and] saved him.

KH:Was it Cliff [Wittwer]?

CB:Oh, no, [it was Laef Hall]

KH:Was that before Cliff?

CB:It was before Cliff.

KH:Who was it?

CB:He was deaf and couldn't talk. I can't remember [his name]. I can see him. One of the [fellows] that was with us pushed me to shore. We were at Dodge Springs where the [LDS] Chapel is [now on Bluff Street].

KH:Yes.

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:Probably.

HJ:Was it Graff from Santa Clara?

CB:No.

KH:Was it [Gordon] "Gordie" Frei?

CB:No, it was a tall skinny [fellow, Laef Hall]. I can't [remember] who was on that city trash [wagon]. He went up right by the golf course and dumped the trash off the ledges.

HJ:I remember that, but I don't remember anyone before Wittwer.

CB:Oh, yes.

KH:You have some more stories you could tell, if you will, Clive.

CB:I don't talk much.

KH:I know you don't.

JB:Tell about how you got in touch with [Marvin] Woodbury to walk to school. You came out the door and whistled. [Marvin Woodbury] was [always] waiting [when Clive got there to walk to school.

[END OF RECORDING ONE.]

JB:He took his wife and went to [Colonia] Pacheo [Chihuahua [Mexico. At that time his mother took classes and learned to be a midwife [inaudible]. She delivered a lot of babies in Mexico. Dad had a farm up in the hills and they 01:04:00would come down into town to go to school. She had twelve children, two of them died so he had five brothers and four sisters, ten of them lived. They told them one night in church that Pancho Villa was coming through and they had to leave in the morning. He was going to burn everything. "Take what you can in your wagon we will be back." So grandma had a new sewing machine so she buried it. You have heard that story, Kelton.

[Joan's grandfather, James William Palmer, practiced plural marriage and had two wives: Eva (Black) Palmer and Joan's grandmother, Olive Myrtle (Black) Palmer. James moved both families to Mexico. Joan's father, Joseph Palmer was born in Mexico. Grandma Myrtle Palmer trained to be a midwife and delivered many babies. Joseph Palmer had eleven brothers and sisters.

─ Added by Cynthia (Burgess) Alldredge during editing.]

They just [took] a few things to eat because they were headed for the Arizona border. Before they got to the border, they were stopped and [the Mexicans] took all their guns and all but one horse to pull their wagon. They took their milk cows. Dad was twelve years old so he walked barefoot, didn't have any shoes. 01:05:00They went into Arizona ─

KH:Was it Arizona or Texas?

JB:Arizona. ─ to one of grandma's brothers who lived there.

KH:Did they have to stop in Texas for a time?

JB:I have never heard of that.

KH:Okay.

JB:Just in Arizona. I may be wrong, but I read that history [inaudible]. Earlier than that, Grandpa Palmer had left with his first wife [Eva (Black) Palmer] and left grandma [Olive Myrtle (Black) Palmer] there. She was going to stay at the ranch with her [children] until this happened. He came to Utah, it was Grayson [instead of Blanding, San Juan County] then. He settled in Blanding with his first wife and their [children]. By the time she came to Blanding, after staying in Arizona and her brother helping her out, he was still living in a dugout or a 01:06:00tent. He didn't have a home for [them]. They needed medical help so grandma went to Bluff [San Juan County, Utah] with her family. There was dad, two younger brothers and, I think, one sister that went to Bluff. Grandma was the midwife and she opened a little store in one room of her house. Dad went to school until he was about fifteen [years old]. Then he [drove] on a freight wagon and went to Dove Creek, Colorado to [pick up] freight with a horse and buggy. Then they moved to Blanding. He [Joseph] built grandma a house [there] and bought a dry farm. To get money for the home he went up to Price [Carbon County, Utah] and worked in the coal mines for awhile.

My mom [Hilda Grace Rose] was born in Annabella [Sevier County] Utah. Mom's mother met her husband [Hyrum Rose] at Dodge Springs [in St. George at a Fourth of July celebration]. She was working at the Cotton Mill over in Washington [City, Washington County, Utah]. They lived in that little town that is not there anymore.

[Joan's mother, Hilda Grace Rose was the daughter of Henry and Ann (Adams) Rose. Ann met Henry at Dodge Springs Park, north of St. George at a Fourth of July celebration. Grandma Rose lived in Harrisburg, Washington County [Utah], now a ghost town. Grandma and other girls worked in the Cotton Mill in Washington City, and rode a wagon to work each day. Grandpa Rose was a lumberman. They lived in lumber camps in Arizona and New Mexico. Hilda Grace Rose was born in Cimarron, New Mexico. She died when mom was twelve years old. She had a brother named Jack. Ann Rose went back to Annabelle, Utah to live with her folks. She re-married to Benjamin Watts of Aurora [Sevier County] Utah. He had five children.

─ Added by Cynthia (Burgess) Alldredge during editing.]

KH:Middleton?

JB:No, it is a ghost town.

HJ:Harrisburg [Washington County, Utah].

JB:Harrisburg. They had a home there. Three or four of the gals rode to 01:08:00Washington [City] to work each day in the Cotton Mill. They came to the Fourth of July celebration at Dodge Springs and she met Grandpa [Hyrum Rose] [inaudible]. He had been married, had seven children and was divorced. He had joined and was a member of the church, but was not really active. He was a lumberman and a miner. They married and moved. She had three miscarriages before she had [my] mother [Hilda Grace Rose]. [My mother] was born in Cimarron, New Mexico. She spent her young days going from one [lumber] camp to [another]. Her dad Bright's disease, a kidney disease, and they went to Salt Lake [City] to a hospital there [where] he died. She [Hilda] had a brother [Jack] who was quite a 01:09:00bit younger than her, so [the family] went back to Annabella to live with [Ann's] folks. Her mother remarried. She went to live with a man to [keep] his house and take care of his [children]. He had four or five children and his wife had died. She married him, a Mr. [Benjamin] Watts.

Mom wanted to go to college and she did. She [went] to Snow College in Ephraim [Sanpete County, Utah] and [studied] to be a schoolteacher. She only had to go two years. She went down east of Monticello [San Juan County, Utah] [to teach school]. She lived with a family, had to ride a horse to a little schoolhouse in the middle of all that [area], start the fire and keep it going all day. I think she had [students] from the first grade up to the eighth grade. She taught there for two years and then she went to Blanding to teach. That is where she met Joseph Palmer. They married and he ran the dry farm [east of Blanding, San Juan 01:10:00County, Utah].

I have a brother and [three] sisters. [LaVan, Joan, Lola, Edna and Carolyn Palmer] I went to work when I was about fifteen [years old] in my cousin's [Rex Neilson] ice cream shop. [When I was sixteen, seventeen and eighteen years old, I worked for cousins [Bernard and Lela Black at the Elk Ridge] café [in Blanding].

KH:Tell their names.

JB:The cousin [at] the ice cream shop was Rex.

KH:Rex Neilson.

JB:Peggy's brother. I worked for Barnard and Lela Black [at] the [Elk Ridge] café in Blanding. At the time they were hauling uranium so we fed all the [drivers] on the trucks twice a day. They would park their cars in Blanding and stay there. Then they would drive to Mexican Hat [San Juan County, Utah], get the ore and bring it back to Monticello for processing.

My dad sold his ranch and moved to Moab and bought some land down there at the time I graduated from high school. I stayed in Blanding for three months by 01:11:00myself so I could graduate. I went to Moab that summer and worked in a café. They were making a movie Cochise. So we fed all the movie [people]. I will tell you a story about that. It doesn't really go with this, but they had children in one of the scenes. They loaded them on a bus to come out to the location, an Indian camp or something. They didn't know what to do with those [children]. So they gave them sleeping pills and put them to sleep all day on that bus. [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

HJ:[Laughter]

JB:I made enough money to go to college. I made good wages and good tips. I went to [Dixie] College and met my husband. [Inaudible] I remember I used to be so jealous of Peggy. Her folks had a piano and she [played] it a bit. She loved to 01:12:00dance and was always so athletic. They had a dance leader come to town [Blanding] so [Peggy] took tap dancing lessons. I would go with her and watch them tap dance. I was so jealous! [Laughter] [Inaudible]

KH:So you felt that Peggy's family was better off financially than you were?

JB:Very definitely. Her dad [Ed Neilson] ran cows. You didn't know you were poor. Everybody in Blanding was poor! [Laughter] You were happy! It didn't matter! You didn't have much, but no one else did either. Mom was a beautiful 01:13:00seamstress so she made all of our clothes. There wasn't anything she couldn't make.

KH:[Who] were some of your friends growing up? [What were] some of the things you did?

JB:We had a little group that went [around] together. One of them was my cousin, one of dad's brother's girls [LaRae]. She was a year older and in the group.

KH:Give names as you [go along].

JB:She was LaRae Palmer. [Others] were Ora [and] Erma Helquist, Peggy Neilson, Joan [(Palmer)] Burgess and Mildred.

KH:Mildred Wright.

JB:Yes, Mildred Wright. We did a lot of things together. We would sleep out on the Fourth of July and the boys would wet down our sleeping bags and soaks us. We always had birthday parties. I had one friend that wasn't in this group and her birthday was every four years [inaudible]. We would go to her house twenty minutes before 12:00 and stay until twenty [minutes] after so we could have a 01:14:00party so [inaudible]. [Laughter] We would all load up in a pickup and go deer hunting sitting on the front of the [truck]. We didn't shoot, we just looked for deer and would spot light them. There weren't too many cars and my brother was a mechanic. He built an old car. You couldn't open the doors.

KH:Tell his name.

JB:LaVan Palmer. He taught me to drive. He said, "Don't ever try to teach your sisters to drive." It was one of those old shift-cars that you couldn't back up. [Laughter] He had it fixed so [I] could back up. It wasn't too easy learning to drive on that [inaudible]. [Laughter] We used to go out and steal chickens and have a chicken bake. We had a neighbor who only lived a couple of blocks who [had] a beautiful orchard. We had one too. We would ride up under his apricot trees and picked fruit. He would come out and shoot at us with a shotgun. [Laughter] He wasn't too happy with us. [We] didn't have much to do and had to 01:15:00make [our] own [activities]. I loved to read. Peggy can tell you that whenever they would come around I always [was] reading a book. Because I worked all of the time, I didn't get to do a lot [inaudible]. When you worked in a little café like that, you did part of the cooking, all of the cleaning, the dishes, the serving, took orders and everything.

KH:How old were you when you took your first job?

JB:[I was] fifteen [years old]. I went to work for Rex in his ice cream shop at [age] fifteen. Then at [age] sixteen, seventeen and eighteen I worked at the café. I had to walk home alone at night. We didn't think anything about that. Blizzards! We didn't have a car and walked everywhere. Peggy lived across the 01:16:00[fence]. Sometimes we would walk to school [in a snow storm] and it would feel like you were walking on air. We lived seven blocks from school. It was just a small town. Everybody knew everybody's business, too much! [Laughter]

KH:Anything else you can tell?

JB:My dad and his brother [Uncle Ken Palmer] owned this dry farm out there about five miles north of Blanding. Two of my cousins and I used go out there, take a lunch, our sleeping bags and sleep over night. [We would] pick pine nuts or chase rabbits. Dad [grew] wheat. He had a big combine and we would sit in the back of the tractor and watch the [wheat] come out. He would put it in this granary. It didn't have windows and we would jump down on the grain and have to climb up the ladder to get out. How come none of us suffocated in that wheat, I don't know. [Laughter] [Inaudible] They owned the block. Aunt Ida and Uncle "Ed" 01:17:00owned this part of the block. The block ran this way, grandma house was here, ours was down here, Aunt Ida's was here, Dennis and Peggy's sister's house was here and [inaudible]. I got that straight, I hope! [Laughter]

KH:I can see it in my mind.

JB:You have seen it several times. We used to like to go to Peggy's house [because] they had an upstairs. It wasn't completely finished, [but] we would go up there and have a ball ─ hiding and playing [with our] dolls. [Youngsters] don't play [with] dolls any more. [Inaudible] We did have cold running water in 01:18:00our house. Peggy had a bathroom and warm water so that was nice. [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

JB:We liked to go to her house and have a bath because she had running warm water. Erma didn't like us. She was the clean freak and we were always messing up her clean house. [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

JB:Ida May (Palmer) Nielson [Peggy's mom] never could hear. She had diphtheria when she was young. She [also] lost her sight [later], but she still [had] a garden and cooked. She lived by herself. She was an amazing person.

KH:[She] did that for 100 years!

JB:Yes, she lived to be 100.

HJ:Where did you get this cougar, Clive? [Clive had dogs trained to trail cougars. The cougar hide hanging at his home at Mountain Meadows was treed at Castle Cliffs, on Utah Hill off of Highway 91 in Washington County, Utah.]

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:Castle Cliffs [on Utah Hill].

JB:[Inaudible]

HJ:[Inaudible]

KH:Did you have dogs and hunt cougars?

CB:Yes.

KH:Tell about it.

CB:I went for a horseback ride! [Laughter]

JB:[Laughter]

KH:What got you interested in the dogs and the cougars?

CB:Just to have something to do.

JB:Milt Holt [inaudible].

KH:Was Milt your mentor?

CB:I went with Milt quite a few times.

JB:What happened to [Milt's] place [in Gunlock, Washington County, Utah]? After his wife died, did they sell it or did one of their [children] live there?

KH:I am not sure who is in his home now.

JB:He was the most meticulous person. If you went out in his shed, every arrowhead, everything he had ever found was all lined up beautifully. [Inaudible]

KH:Yes.

CB:Have you ever thought about watching a man tranquilize a cougar? That is quite an experience. You have the dogs jumping, flying up on the limb. Milt would climb up the tree [with] the tranquilizer needle. He had a little pipe about this long and he filled it with whatever they used to knock them out with. He would get a rope around the [mountain] lion's neck and then he would push that needle into the lions. Within ten minutes it would get drowsy and pretty quick it would fall out of the tree. He had to have two [fellows] there. One [fellow] would hang on to the head rope. When [the cougar] hit the ground and the other [fellow] grabbed the tail and held it until it passed clear out. On one trip we went out passed Modena [Iron County, Utah].

KH:In [the] Hamblin Valley [Utah area]?

CB:Yes, right at the head of Hamblin Valley at the [Nevada-Utah] state line. We took a bunch of [fellows] and went out there. When we [had] the lion tranquilized ─ I have to think what to say.

JB:He probably hasn't told me this story. [Laughter]

CB:I have told you this story. After we [had] the lion tranquilized, two of my friends and I put the lion in the truck and told everybody we were taking it down and turning it loose way down in Hamblin Valley. The three of us went down 01:22:00[there] and chased mustangs all day. We had an appointment to meet Milt Holt at 10:00 [p. m.] in the Veyo store [to deliver the lion]. By the time we got back to the Veyo store, it was dark and nearly 10:00 o'clock. Every time the lion would pass wind you would think it was going to do something.

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:I won't say where the lion was, but you know what I mean.

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:You could [see] it was waking up [and] by the time we got there it was pretty near awake. We drug it out and it tried to stand up. [Inaudible] I won't tell you what he did with the lions after he got them.

HJ:[Laughter]

JB:I [want] to tell another story. I went with him and Eldon [inaudible] to hunt mustangs a lot. One day they got [inaudible] and we had [inaudible] [children]. [Eldon Hafen, wife Maxine and children and Clive and Joan and children drove to Hamblin Valley to pick up pine nuts.]

KH:[Laughter]

JB:We went clear out into Hamblin Valley to pick pine nuts. We had all the picking [equipment] and knew just where to go. They took us to the place where the pine nuts were and said, "We will see you." By the way, they took the horses!

KH:Oh, yes! [Laughter]

JB:They left us there all day with those little [children] while they were hunting mustangs! [Laughter] Both of us could have killed them! [Laughter]

CB:Can you believe us doing that?

KH:I can't believe that! Clive, tell about the wild cow chases. How did you get involved in that?

CB:Eldon, Willis Black, Morris Cox and I got involved in getting the wild cows down in Twin [Creek Canyon] out by the Colorado River. We had to build a road down in there in and Morris had a Cat. He built the road and we paid him for doing it. For two winters we went out there nearly every Sunday, wasn't it mom? Or nearly every weekend ─

JB:Nearly every weekend.

CB:─ in the winter when the snow was on the ground and roped wild cows. I am not sure, but we brought about seventy head out of there.

JB:They tore the racks on their pickups to pieces. [The cows] were wild and mean. Tell about "Joe" and the wild cow that chased him.

CB:[Inaudible] "Kelt" was there, too.

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:I went with you a couple of times, too.

CB:You were there when that big cow about jumped "Joe."

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:Yes. Tell about some of [the] horses you had and how you felt about [them].

CB:I enjoyed them because I lived with them. They weren't the fastest in the world, but they got the job done.

KH:Do you have one or two special ones that you would like to tell about?

CB:Not necessarily.

KH:Okay. You had mustang mare named "Sodie Cracker." Tell about her.

CB:A [fellow] named Greg Hafen and I, you wouldn't know who he was, got in his dad's [Guy Hafen] truck and went out to Hamblin Valley. We started across Hamblin Valley and the snow was so deep there wasn't a road, so we back into the bank and unloaded the horses. Then we chased mustangs most of the day. He caught a stud and I caught a little black mare and a little bay colt. We had them tied down. We finally turned the stud loose because he was too big to bring back. We went clear across the north end of Hamblin Valley and brought them back over to the truck. When we got to the truck Greg wanted to spend the night and go back and chase mustangs the next day. I wouldn't let him. The only bedding we had was 01:26:00a horse blanket.

KH:[Laughter]

CB:We didn't even know if we would be able to drive the truck to Modena [because of the snow], but we made it. That was [when I got] "Soda Cracker."

JB:[He] had to break her to ride.

KH:Tell [why] you gave her [that] name.

CB:I let Jeter Lang ride her for awhile. He said she was just a "sodie" cracker, "very good for nothing!"

KH:I thought he said she was just as salty as a soda cracker. [Laughter]

CB:[Laughter] That is about the size of it.

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:No, I don't think so. No, she is gone, I am sure.

JB:I don't remember seeing her.

KH:How about going with "Jete" Lang on a mustang chase or two? Tell what kind of 01:27:00an experience that was. Did he break the speed limit?

CB:He broke the speed limit quite severely, but he didn't want to [inaudible] those horses [inaudible] ride the truck. So he pretty near stopped to go around the turns.

KH:[It] would take you longer to get out and back then it did [to chase horses].

CB:[Laughter] Than it did to do what you were going to do!

KH:[Laughter]

CB:Yes.

KH:Ask him a couple of questions. Let's see what ─.

JH:I have about run out of ─.

KH:Battery?

HJ:Out of tape.

KH:You are not telling us enough, Clive. You know a lot of things [that] you could tell us.

CB:[Inaudible] I will tell about "Jete." One night we left town late, after we 01:28:00got off work. There were three of us and we got a ride into the mouth of Hamblin Valley and stopped and checked things out. The truck was pretty near out of oil. So one of the [fellows] with me had to drive the truck down to Modena, buy some oil, fill it up and come back. We slept right there under the rocks going into Hamblin Valley. Can you guess who that would have been [that] was with me?

KH:I probably could. If I can't get you to talk any more, I guess we just as well ─.

CB:I talk too much.

JB:I need to say that at this time we have twenty grandchildren, thirty-five 01:29:00great-grandchildren. When you add the family all up [there are] about seventy-nine [of us]. We can only have about half of them at Thanksgiving and Christmas as our house [will] only hold about thirty-five [people]. [Laughter]

CB:Ask her how many come?

JB:For Easter we had fifty [people].

KH:So you would be eighty-four years old?

JB:Eighty-five.

KH:Eighty-five, now?

JB:Eighty-five in November [2016]. That was another thing about Peggy and my birthdays. It never snowed on my birthday, on [November] 5th, but by [November] 13th it always had so we could make a snowman at her house! [Laughter]

KH:Yes.

JB:All those crazy things you remember! [Laughter]

KH:Yes.

JB:It doesn't snow any more. I remember when my father passed away. [There had been] a huge snow storm. They had the casket at my brother Lavan's house. They had snow plowed up ten feet on each side of the road [by] his house and out to 01:30:00the cemetery. I think "Joe" was about twelve [years old] and they asked him to be a pallbearer. It was icy. He never will forget that he slid and fell while he was carrying his grandpa's casket. That embarrassed him to death [inaudible].

KH:Clive, you lived through two quite heavy snowstorms. Tell what you remember about them.

CB:The only really big storm we had was up here when they had only single lane traffic going between Kane Springs and Enterprise. They made places [where] you could pull off the road and pass a car. One [place] you had to back up so you could get by.

KH:Do you remember the year?

CB:Wasn't it 1937?

KH:But the 1948 -- 1949 storm was a lot that way, too. Wasn't it?

CB:But the [1937] storm didn't come up here. The 1949 one was the bad one.

KH:Yes.

JB:Since we have been here, we have had one [snowstorm].

CB:[Inaudible]

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:Tell about what you learned to do over in Hawaii when you went over there.

JB:For my eighty-fourth birthday, "Joe" and "Ed' and their families took us to Hawaii. We were at a luau where they were eating. There must have been 1,000 people there. They said, "Anybody with November birthdays come down on the stage and we will teach you to hula." I had a grandson who had a [November] birthday two days before mine. One of my other grandsons had his wife-to-be there, so we 01:32:00went down on the stage and [did the] hula in front of 1,000 people. [Laughter] I wasn't going to go, but Jeff made me go! He said, "If I go, you [have] to, grandma!" [Laughter] That was a fun trip! There were seventeen great-grandchildren and eighteen adults on that trip [a total of thirty-five people]. It was great!

KH:Okay. Shall we call it a day then?

HJ:I guess we better.

[RECORDER TURNED OFF]

JB:─ and she [Clive's mother, Clara] had one of her grandsons, one of Rodney [inaudible] boys who was about twelve [years old] with her. That was when there was very little traffic and the road was way down there. She sent him down to try to stop a car. [No one] would stop for him. [This was] when his dad had a stroke. She finally went down and somebody stopped, who was it?

[Clive's father became very sick at the ranch in August 1951. Clara and "Mitt" had a twelve year old grandson visiting them. Clara sent Robert, the grandson, down to the highway, one-half mile west of the ranch house, but no cars would stop. Clara didn't drive. Finally, she walked to the road. Clarence Moss and his wife from Santa Clara stopped. Clarence drove Clara and "Mitt" to town. His wife followed in grandpa's car with Robert. Grandma had "Mitt" in her arms and knew he had passed away before they reached the hospital. Grandpa Milton had had a brain hemorrhage. He was sixty-four years old. Grandma Clara was a widow for forty years. She lived to age ninety-nine and one-half.

─ Added by Cynthia (Burgess) Alldredge during editing.]

CB:Clarence Moss.

JB:Clarence Moss and his wife stopped and took him to town [St. George]. By the 01:33:00time they went [by] the service station [and motel] where Clive and I were working they figured his dad was dead.

KH:How old was he [Milton Burgess] then?

JB:He was about sixty-four [years old]. [Clive's] mom was a widow for forty years.

KH:Were you married then?

CB:Yes, just barely.

JB:We had been married three months. That was in [August 1951].

CB:[Inaudible]

JB:I had only met his dad a few times because when we were [there] to eat with them a couple of times his dad was always at the ranch with [inaudible]. I really didn't know his dad at all.

KH:Tell your impression of your dad, Clive. Did you have a [very] good relationship [with] him?

CB:We had a good relationship, but he was very quiet and wouldn't talk. [If] you 01:34:00asked him a question, he would answer it, but that is about as far as it went.

KH:So when you were together you didn't do a lot of talking?

CB:No, he never talked much.

JB:He [came down with] malaria when he was on his mission. So he had [that] all his life. [Inaudible]

KH:Did he spend his whole life with the farm, a few cattle and the ranch?

CB:He never worked for wages from anybody.

KH:About how many cattle did he run? Not a very big herd, I guess.

CB:Not a very big [herd]. We had a permit for forty-four head. [Inaudible]

KH:When you divided the property, you kept the ranch and [your brother] "Rod" 01:35:00got the [fields below town].

CB:Rod was off teaching school and he continued teaching and I ran the farm. [Then we] started to sell the place. "Rod" said he wanted the farm so I gave him the farm and I bought the ranch and the pasture. One thing that he probably wouldn't enjoy it, but it is kind of interesting. When dad was [in] town putting up hay, we had a cellar over here by the old house, [where] we would separate the milk and get the cream off of it. We would have to take it to the post office. The mail would go down through here three days a week. We had five gallon milk cans. I would saddle up the horse, get on the horse, lift the can of 01:36:00cream up as high as [I could], and not get it on the saddle horn, and [inaudible]. She [mom] would lead the horse down the road [one-half mile], help me get the cream can off and set it [by the side of the road for the mailman to pick up. The cream went to Salt Lake City].

JB:[Inaudible] That was the only money they had to live on.

CB:We don't know what it is like to be broke. Did you know that?

JB:[Laughter] Have no idea!

HJ:Well, some of us do! [Laughter]

CB:You might do, but you don't! [Laughter]

KH:[Laughter]

CB:I could tell you [more] stories, [just] like that one! [Inaudible]

KH:Tell another [one]!

HJ:[Laughter]

CB:You know what I am trying to say.

HJ:Yes, I am with you!

JB:She said it was cold enough in that cellar that sometimes she could set Jell-O down there. But she would put her bottled [canned] fruit down there and you had to be careful because you might touch a rattlesnake when you were taking [the fruit of the shelf] with the milk! [Laughter]

HJ:[Laughter]

CB:[Inaudible] killed rattlesnakes here every summer.

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:There aren't many women who would.

JB:Can you see the hummingbird feeder out here?

KH:Yes.

JB:It has 100 birds around it right now. We both worked for twenty-five years. We would come up here at night to sleep, mess with the garden and go back. I came home one night, before Clive, and thought I had better take that hummingbird feeder in.

CB:I was moving sprinklers.

JB:You were moving sprinklers. I got to it and looked down and there was a snake coiled right at my feet.

HJ:[Inaudible] [Laughter]

JB:I stooped down, picked up a rock and hit it.[Laughter] I have come pretty close, several times, to snakes. But I did kill them. I usually have a hoe or a shovel.

CB: I can tell you another story that was quite interesting. Keith had his family up there at his place over [on property he bought form Floyd Ence].

JB:[Laughter]

CB:His father-in-law [Kay Bowler] and I were sitting at a picnic table. I was sitting like this, Kay was on this side of me and we were talking back and forth. All of a sudden I looked over and he [Kay] said, "Don't move!" "What is the matter?" He said, "You have a rattlesnake on your feet." I looked down and there was a rattlesnake that long. [It] laid right across his feet, right across mine. [It came from] the trees. [Laughter] I didn't dare move! Would you move?

[Keith and Ila and their family were having a picnic at the pond on the property that Keith and Ed bought from the Ences. Ila's parents, Kay and Beverly Bowler, and Keith's parents, Clive and Joan Burgess, were there. Clive and Kay were sitting on a bench turned towards each other talking. Clive told Kay not to move, they had a rattlesnake crawling across their feet. Kay still can't believe they held still until that snake moved off his feet. Keith found a shovel.

─ Added by Cynthia (Burgess) Alldredge during editing.]

HJ:Well, I don't know!

CB:[Laughter]

HJ:[Inaudible]

KH:He might have had a movement! [Laughter]

CB:That didn't matter. You didn't move!

JB:[Inaudible] her [Ila's] dad [Kay Bowler] died about three years ago. That was [something] he couldn't believe, that he could hold still. [Laughter]

HJ:[Laughter]

KH:Tell me, Clive, about your mother. Did she enjoy being up here in the summer?

CB:How would [we] know? She never complained.

JB:She didn't have a choice [because] she never learned to drive. She always told me, "Maybe if I drove, I could have saved my husband's life." But [inaudible] to take him to town. They did have a pickup here, but she couldn't drive. He had a cerebral hemorrhage, so they couldn't have saved him.

CB:[Inaudible]

JB:Yes.

KH:In your mind, you don't know whether your mother really enjoyed being here or 01:40:00whether she would have liked to be in town.

CB:She acted like she [liked the ranch]. I never heard her and dad have a cross word. They weren't like Joan and I, we don't fight all the time. [Laughter]

JB:[Laughter] I will tell you what she told me once. She said, "I loved being up there with my family, but I am a social person so I miss my friends." Now that is all she ever said to me.

KH:Yes.

JB:That is all she ever complained to me about.

KH:I knew she was quite outgoing and enjoyed her social life down there [in town]. [Clive's mother, Clara, worked as an ordinance worker in the St, George Temple for thirty-four years. She had to walk thirteen blocks to the temple. Someone usually drove her home.]

[RECORDER TURNED OFF]

JB:[Inaudible] rides and all the [inaudible].

CB:Those [youngsters] never had a [inaudible].

JB:There were twelve great-grandchildren and [inaudible]. [Inaudible] go to the same school

CB:[Inaudible]

JB:Yes.

HJ:You can count your blessings, Clive, that you have [children] like that.

CB:You bet! We have more [blessings] than you will ever know.

JB:Right now, "Joe's" girl [Jayme and] her family are in Alaska with her husband's [Logan] family. He was raised in Monroe [Sevier County, Utah]. [Inaudible]

CB:Shhhh! That is illegal!

HJ:[Laughter]

JB:Keith ran over [inaudible]. [Inaudible] When [they] came after her, she left 01:42:00her shoes. They took their shoes off and went barefoot out in the pine needles [inaudible]. [Laughter]

KH:Tell about [the wild] turkeys around here. Are there still a few? Or a lot?

CB:There are three or four.

KH:About how many turkeys would you guess are here?

CB:Truthfully, I will bet there are over 500 between "Ed" and Keith's property and the monument down there right now. Yesterday I counted forty-nine old ones without any biddies. We can sit here and watch them. The hens will come in with five, six or ten biddies and feed.

KH:Yes.

JB:[Inaudible]

KH:So in the whole valley there might be close to 1,000 head?

CB:At least, now that they are all hatched out.

KH:Yes.

JB:[Inaudible] They will come back.

CB:Sometimes.

JB:Yes, some of them didn't. [Inaudible]

KH:[Laughter]

JB:[Inaudible]

CB:I saw a turkey in the wash.

KH:Yes. Do you have a lot of problems with trespassers or people wanting to come in?

CB:We do, turkey hunters are the worst. We had a pipeline across the road in Keith's [area] to drain water from one [inaudible] to another for his cows. We just left it across the road, no trespass all the way. The next day I went up to 01:44:00check him out, his pickup had [been] driven over it and smashed the pipe. He couldn't get out the gate [that was] padlocked down here, so they turned around and went back. They did take the pipe apart when they went back up and put it back together. The first time they ran over it, they ruined the pipe.

KH:Yes.

CB:Then they ask me why I won't let hunters come in.

JB:[Inaudible]

[END OF RECORDING TWO. END OF INTERVIEW.]