Interview with Ellen Jane (Ashcroft) Kleinman

Ellen Jane (Ashcroft) Kleinman was interviewed on April 26, 1969 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Fielding H. Harris, a representative of Voices of Remembrance Foundation. She related her personal history of living in various parts of New Mexico, arizona and Utah.

FH:What is your full name?

EK:[My name is] Ellen Jane (Ashcroft) Kleinman.

FH:What is your birth date?

EK:[I was born] May 23, 1898.

FH:Where were you born?

EK:[I was born in] Ramah, New Mexico.

FH:[What was] your father’s name?

EK:[My father’s name was] James Barton Ashcroft.

FH:What was your mother’s [full] name?

EK:[Her name was] Elizabeth Lavina (Johnston) [Ashcroft].

FH:Can you recall anything from your [very] early childhood?

EK:I remember, 00:01:00as a child, we lived in a little red two-room brick home in Kirkland, New Mexico. Before that we had lived in Ramah, New Mexico as I told you. We were there when I was born. My father was called to be the bishop of The [Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] Ward in Kirkland, so we moved over there. That is where [I] spent [my] early life.

FH:[Do] you remember any of your playmates?

EK:Yes, I don’t remember [their] names to call them right off as well I should, but I know that we lived maybe three blocks from the [United States] Post Office on a back street. My friends lived over by the Post Office. I used to go through [the] tall sagebrush over to visit with them and to get the mail.

FH:Did you start school there? 00:02:00EK:Yes, I started school in Kirkland. I was there until I was ten years old and so the early [education that I had] was in Kirkland.

FH:What kind of a school was it?

EK:[It was a] one-room schoolhouse. I had a half-brother [who] was about my age. We were together all the time. I would like to tell one thing about him. My father had three wives [Margaret “Maggie” Ellen (Johnston) Ashcroft, Elizabeth Lavina (Johnston) Ashcroft and Nannie Amelia (Smith) Ashcroft] at that time. It was before The Manifesto [was issued]. [He] and I used to be together all the time. One time we lived in a large two-apartment home and we used to chase the chickens. [There was] an old well that was not used any more. I remember Carl would hit the chickens, I would get them and then we would throw them down this well. One time we walked away from home and went quite a-ways away. 00:03:00They wanted to frighten us a little bit about it. Aunt “Maggie,” Carl’s mother, came after us with a blanket wrapped around her so that she could frighten us that the Indians might get us. Carl peeked around just in time to see it was his mother. I was pulling at him, [and] trying to get him to run. I was afraid of that Indian! He let me know that it was his mother. That was one of the tricks that we played as children.

FH:[Laughter] Was there danger from the Indians in that area?

EK:There were quite a lot of Indians and they weren’t sure but what they might harm us in some way.

FH:Were they sometimes friendly and sometimes not so friendly?

EK:[They were] mostly friendly. I don’t believe they were really afraid of the Indians as much as they were [afraid] that we would get out and get lost. It was just for our own protection.

FH:It was a big wide-open country.

EK:Yes, it was.

FH:Tell about your [education]. 00:04:00How far did you go in school?

EK:The first part of my life was in Kirkland. My father died when I was five years old. When I was ten [years old], my mother and I had diphtheria. She passed away. My uncle came over with a wagon and team, 150 miles across the reservation to get me and take me over to grandmother [Ellen Jane (Perks) Johnston’s home]. My early school years were in Ramah until I was in the eighth grade.

At first we lived down on the ranch, I guess, two miles out of town. It was kind of fun to walk to school. We had two families that had girls of my age 00:05:00and we would walk to school. Later, we moved up right to the side of the public block. There was only one building and that was [for] the school. [It] was used for the church also. That is where the rest of my early [education] was.

FH:In that day, was most of the population Mormon?

EK:They were all Mormons in [the] little town [of] Ramah..

FH:[Was] everything done in a community way interchangeably with the church?

EK:Yes. They had curtains that they drew through the room. That was the partition [so], instead of having us going to rooms, we sat in these different sections.

FH:Did you have more than one teacher [for] all the grades?

EK:[It was] one teacher [for] all the grades. Those partitions were for Sunday school. [At] school, we all sat openly and then she would go from one group to another While we were studying, she would have another class reciting. 00:06:00FH:Do you feel this was [a] good school? Were the teachers well-qualified?

EK:Indeed they were qualified. We had to learn; we had to do our work. It taught us to concentrate on what we were doing and not what the other person was doing.

FH:Did you [go] through all of the first grades there and [then] on to high school?

EK:I am not saying that this was a better school than what we had, indeed not. [For] the conditions [at that time] it was fine. My grandmother [had] rheumatism so badly 00:07:00that I had to turn her on a draw sheet. At the age of sixteen years old that was quite a job for me. I would turn her on that for two months; then her son took us down to Plumas Hot Springs, New Mexico. There we would take her into [the] hot water and she would stay for so long. Then we would [take] her out and wrap her in a blanket. In ten days that lady walked on crutches. Then we took her home. Her son, Sam Johnston, was living in Mesa [Arizona]. They suggested that we go down there because the warm weather would be better for her. So grandmother sold her home and moved to and bought a [small] home there. That is where we spent the rest of our life 00:08:00 together.

FH:Did her health continue to improve?

EK:Oh my, yes. She lived to be ninety-three years old, was active and not a bit helpless. It was [very] wonderful for her. She was an exceptional woman. She brought hundreds of babies into the world. She was set apart by one of the apostles as a nurse. She could diagnose typhoid [fever] and all those diseases just like a doctor. She studied and learned it. She was a wonderful person. She would deliver a baby and [for] ten days, she would come back every day, bathe the baby and the mother; then the mother was on her own.

FH:[Did] the church [encourage] this type [of treatment] in these southern areas?

EK:Yes.

FH:[Were] women were called and set apart for this work?

EK:They had some training, but mostly she had a doctors book and she would take that and 00:09:00read and study.

FH:Was she to understand that this was her calling and she was going to have to work at it?

EK:Absolutely.

FH:In these early times, did you take some trips? Tell about how it was [to] travel.

EK:For instance, the first [trip] that I can remember we went over to Kirkland. I was three years old; wouldn’t remember [much about] that [trip]. After my parents died, my uncle came over and got us [in] this old wagon with a cover on it. We would travel a few miles, then we would have to stop and let the horses rest. It took us ten days to go 150 miles.

The thing that was most frightening to me was the trip across the river. The San Juan River runs right to the side of Kirkland, Fruitland and Farmington [New Mexico]. We had 00:10:00to ford that [river]. It seemed to me like the river was taking us right down stream and it was [very] frightening. The water was almost up to the bed of the wagon. The horses were pulling us up, but to me it seemed like we were going right down stream. That was [very] frightening. As we would travel across there, we would have to have food: potatoes and [food] that we could cook quickly for our [meals]. I imagine we had cereal that would be easy for us to fix. But that was quite a chore to get across that reservation. The Indians were friendly enough then, but they would afford much food for us.

FH:[Did] you have to be self-sustaining?

EK:Absolutely. [There were] no stores on the way. 00:11:00FH:[If it took] ten days to go 150 miles, [that is] about fifteen miles a day.

EK:That [is with the] horses walking. They were not trotting much.

FH:[Did] you [go to school until] your last year of high school?

EK:Yes.

FH:[Did] you have other [education courses] since then?

EK:We have taken extension courses through the Home Demonstration Agent. [A] pair of us have gone to college and taken courses in different subjects that we have wanted to study.

FH:[Have] you [never] stopped learning [during] your life?

EK:Indeed [I have] not.

FH:Did you have any accidents or sickness 00:12:00in [your] growing-up years?

EK:The worst sickness I had, of course, was diphtheria when it took my mother. As a child, I was a diabetic. I remember that if I ate sweets or something that didn’t agree with me, I could feel something [that] felt like needles crawling from my feet up and then I would pass out. I don’t think anybody wanted to take care of me because of my health condition.

When I had diphtheria, mother had typhoid diphtheria. I remember that Aunt “Maggie,” she was older than my mother, [and her] sister, and she had a home that was 00:13:00larger than ours because she had more family. My sister had a new baby, so we wanted to get away from the new baby and the sister. Aunt “Maggie” took us into her home. She had a bedroom that mother was in and I was in the front room. She had a friend [who] came over to help her take care of us. Her children went off to friends to keep away from the disease. I remember mother wanted to see me, so Aunt “Maggie” carried me in and set me in a chair by mother. That was the last time I saw my mother. [Emotional] FH:About how old were you?

EK:[It was] just before I was ten years old. I remember looking at her mouth; it looked black, like the disease had really blackened it. Then I became so seriously ill that I didn’t remember any more for awhile. I asked my aunt why she didn’t go in to the room to see mother. 00:14:00She said, “Your mother is alright.” And she went out of the room very quickly. She had told the doctor and [the] lady [who] was with her, and she had this lady tell me that my mother had gone. It was quite a shock to me, of course. [Emotional] After I was better and able to be up, I had my tenth birthday. They had written back and forth, I imagine, and grandmother had said she would take care of me.

FH:Did you recover at this time pretty fast?

EK:Yes. I was quite well when I went to Ramah to live. I had a brother, “Charley” [Ashcroft]; we called him “Charley,” his name was Charles. He was older than me [by] about three years. 00:15:00He didn’t go with us, at the time, over to grandmother’s, but later on he did come and was with us part of the time. He made his home with [other] relatives.

FH:Did your diabetes continue to plague you after that?

EK:I never had an attack after I went to my grandmother [because she was] a nurse. She realized that it was mostly diet that did it. I recovered from it that way with the help of every health doctor we could go and listen to. We learned how to feed ourselves.

FH:[Did] you [have] some training to become a nurse?

EK:When our second [child] — our oldest boy, “Don” [Kleinman], was in [military] service, I felt like I wanted to do something to help with the sickness. [A] course was [being] given in Provo [Utah County, Utah]. 00:16:00I went to the Provo Hospital and I took my training [to be a] licensed practical nurse. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] FH:Tell about your church activities during the years that you were growing up.

EK:Sunday school was the main [activity] and church [meetings]. We had to walk so far, and Primary would be [what] I was concerned with at that time. As soon as we moved into [the] town [of] Ramah, I went to Mutual [Improvement Association].

FH:Were there activities in Mutual [like] plays, dramas and dances?

EK:Yes. That was the main [activity that] we had — our dancing. We used to play basketball all the time. I was one of the fastest ones on my two legs. We used to run a lot of races.

FH:Was this in church or school?

EK:[It was] in school, but our church used to put on wonderful dramas. 00:17:00The dances were the main [activity].

FH:What kind of music did you have for your dances?

EK:[We had] violin, guitar and piano.

FH:Did you like to dance?

EK:Yes, you bet.

FH:Do you feel that the training you [received] in church was a real benefit to you?

EK:It was the most wonderful thing that anyone could have, because it let you know why and what we are here for. [It] gives us an objective to work for to prepare ourselves. To me, it is life itself.

FH:Is this the most important thing in your life?

EK:Absolutely.

FH:[Did] you teach in some of the organizations [in] those early years?

EK:[I did] not [teach] while we were in Ramah, but when we went to Mesa I taught. I was sixteen years old [when] we went to Mesa. I really enjoyed Sunday school and 00:18:00teaching Primary with the young children.

FH:Tell a little bit about your father. What [do] you recall about him?

EK:[What] I remember was partly from what [others] told me, but my father was so special to me. After The Manifesto, which [was] before I could remember, I didn’t have a father to live with, to be with him and associate with him. I used to cry and say, “I want to kiss my papa.” He meant so much [to me]. I remember him coming [to visit] 00:19:00and bringing us gifts. One of the gifts he gave me was a black-headed china doll. [It was] only the head and my sister made the body. That has gone to our oldest daughter, June [(Kleinman)] Calhoun, as a keepsake for her.

One time he came [to visit] and he had a cover on the back of his one-seated buggy. He lifted that cover and there was the most beautiful bonnet you ever saw. [It was] all ruffles and pink, blue and yellow and it [was] a beautiful sight. When he would get something like that, he would take it around to each home and give each of us our gift. He was so thoughtful of his family.

FH:[Did] he have three wives?

EK:He had three wives. He married Aunt [Margaret Ellen] “Maggie” Johnston [April 5, 1982]. My grandmother said, “I will never allow one of my girls to marry that young again.” She thought she was too young. The next year my father came back and married my mother, Elizabeth [on November 28, 1885]. 00:20:00I guess grandmother had seen that Aunt “Maggie” was happy. She was happy to have father have my mother.

I would like to tell some things about him. In they had two wards: the Fruitland [Ward] and the [Ward]. Whoever was bishop in one [ward\, the other withdrew and wouldn’t be a part of them as much as they should be. They knew when this bishop died they never could have one from each of those groups. So they went over to Ramah. They had known father because he had freighted back and forth and they asked him to come over and be the bishop. He wasn’t a part of either one [ward]. That was the most united group that you could imagine. They really loved father. I have had people [who] knew him tell me how much he could get them all together.

Uncle George [Richie] Bloomfield was born after grandmother had lost Grandfather 00:21:00Ashcroft. She married [John] Bloomfield. Uncle George had a girlfriend [and] they wanted to go to Farmington [New Mexico] to the dances. Father knew that there was drinking up there and he didn’t want the young people to go and associate with them. He told Uncle George and Aunt Lucy Bloomfield that he would rather that they didn’t go up there. Well, they went anyway this special time. Aunt Lucy told me that father stood by the door Sunday morning and shook her hand. She said, “He never said a word about it, but I knew he knew exactly what we had done.” He had a way of being quiet and understanding people. They knew that he could just look right through their heart. He [had] that way with the young people.

I remember one time there was 00:22:00a traveling show that came around. I can’t remember what happened [but] these young people were supposed to [do their] show in Kirkland, I believe, and they were not going to do it. As they went through [town] these [young people] threw rotten eggs and ripe tomatoes at them. So they went right on to Farmington and told the officers. The officers came down there after them. Father being the bishop, which was [like being] the father of the ward, went right with those young people. They were to be corrected. He wanted them corrected, but he wanted to be there with them and let them know that he was right by the side of them. That was the way he was. He had a way of understanding people. That is [what] I remember most about father. [I was] five years old [when] my father was killed [January 2, 1904]. He was blasting from a point of the mountain down into Fruitland where they were going to take the water out for the Navajo Indians to [use to] farm. They were blasting this rock away and one blast didn’t go off. Father wouldn’t allow 00:23:00anyone to go close to it, but finally after awhile he stepped over on this rock. The blast went off and blew him into the [San Juan] River. The Navajo Indians were so frightened of death. There was one white man there and a bunch of Indians. The white man went into the river and got father out. He said that he never breathed after he got him out. There was a bruised spot over his heart, so evidently it killed him when he fell. This man had to go for help. He left this Indian with father, and he loved him so much that he stayed right with him, even though they were frightened to death of death. [Inaudible] Father was one of the very first missionaries among those Navajo Indians. I remember there was one old lady [who] used to say that “Jim” Ashcroft was her son. When I was married and went through the reservation, I told them that I was “Jim” Ashcroft’s daughter or “Charley” Ashcroft’s sister. I learned to say that much in their language. They would tell us 00:24:00where we wanted to go and direct us and [were very] nice to us. When they had the funeral for father, it was above the old Co-op Store. It was a big building that they used for dancing and entertainment. People came from miles and miles away to his funeral. He was that much loved, all up and down that country. I was five years old when he was killed.

FH:Tell a little bit about your mother. What do you remember [of] her?

EK:Mother was a most devoted wife and mother to us children. She had my sister Levina, Charles and Dewey. 00:25:00She lost him when he was very young and then I was born. I was the last one. Mother had to work to support us. She had this [very] nice red brick home, but it was small. She had a big yard around it that we could [grow] quite a bit of corn and potatoes and things. She had an orchard planted. I remember one time one of the general authorities came down and she [invited] him to dinner. He was just amazed when he saw her home. He said it was a veritable Garden of Eden. She had grapes and fruit trees in front of the home and he thought it looked [very] beautiful. [The] land on the east of the 00:26:00home seemed to us like the cobble rocks grew in it every year. It was plowed [and] we had to gather up more cobble rocks and throw them away. That was mostly Charley’s [responsibility] to get those rocks off of there so we could [grow] a crop.

I remember one time when Uncle George and Aunt Lucy were married, they didn’t have any place to live. Mother told them that she would put her things in one [of] the rooms and they could have the other [room] if they would take care of me while she was working in a hotel in Farmington. I remember her coming down to visit. I didn’t want her to go away and I cried. I remember she was in this little room where our furniture was and she held me on her lap and tried to pacify me. It was quite a sad thing [that] she had to leave her children to make a living, but she was a wonderful person and 00:27:00did it in a good way.

FH:Now how old were you when she died?

EK:[It was] just before I was ten years old.

FH:{Do] you remember your father’s parents at all?

EK:I remember father’s mother [Elizabeth Ann (Barton) Ashcroft]. They lived in Hyde Park [Cache County] Utah. [Before] Grandfather [Henry] Ashcroft died, he had asked Brother Daines to marry his [two] wives and take care of them. The other wife [Mary (Glover)] married Brother Daines, but grandmother said no, that she didn’t love him [and] she didn’t want to marry him. [Later], she met [John] Bloomfield and married him. So [she] was Grandma Bloomfield to me, but she was a wonderful person.

I would like to tell one little [incident] about her. She was an English girl and [when] she was a teenager — the church had been taught to them [in England] and she had joined 00:28:00the church. She wanted to [come] to America, but she didn’t have any means to [come] on. She was small, but a very wiry person. Her boyfriend was going to put her down [in] the cellar. It had one of these sloping doors. He was having a time to get that little gal down in the cellar. Finally, he got her down and slammed the door. It hit her right in the mouth and knocked her front teeth out. So he decided that —.

FH:Was he trying to keep her from [leaving]?

EK:No. He didn’t know anything about her [leaving]; they were [just] playing [around]. These were just some of their activities and grandmother was strong enough that he was having a time with her. He decided that he better buy her some teeth. He gave her some money to buy her teeth 00:29:00and she took that money and came to . She never had those front teeth put in. That is the way I remember her, with those front teeth out. She was a [very] active little lady when I knew her and she was quite old.

FH:She gave her teeth for a trip to America. [Laughter] EK:She certainly did.

FH:Tell me about your mother’s parents. What can you remember of them?

EK:I only remember grandfather [William James] Johnston as being a very old, old man. Before I was born, he was in the Mormon Battalion and received a pension. He decided he wanted to go to Manti [Sanpete County, Utah] and work in the temple. Grandmother [Ellen Jane (Perks) Johnston] didn’t feel that she was able to go because she had children [who] were still young. Grandmother was twenty years younger than grandfather. 00:30:00As he was quite old, he decided he would go up there and went without her. When he [became] quite helpless, grandmother and Aunt “Maggie” went up and brought him down. I had been living in Ramah, but grandmother had come over. She and Aunt “Maggie” went up and got grandfather. When they brought him down, he was able to get up from the chair to the bed, but gradually he became in the sitting position. He couldn’t straighten his limbs out. That was the way we took care of him until he passed on [September 26, 1912]. Grandmother, being younger and being a nurse, was able to take care of him.

FH:Was this arthritis? Or a type of that?

EK:[It was] something that hardened his bones. We had an old rocking chair, and we would boost him out into that rocking chair and pull [the] chair into the front room from his bedroom. I remember feeding him his meal sometimes. If I gave him one bite too much I had better dodge or it came right back in my face. 00:31:00He couldn’t tell me that he didn’t want any more, he just spit it out. He was quite a character. I remember the shock I [received] when — we had a curtain in front of his door. When he passed away, I almost forgot that he was gone and I lifted that curtain to see [if] he was alright and there was no grandfather there. It was quite a shock to me, being as young as I was.

Grandmother lived to be ninety-three [years old]. She was as active as she could be. She bought this home in after she [went] down there. When she became so old that she couldn’t take care of herself, we took her to our home and she lived with us. She loved the children and was happy with us, but she did cry when we left 00:32:00her home. She said, “All my life I have worked hard that I might have a home when I got old, and now I am leaving it.” But she wasn’t able to get up and get her breakfast and my husband had gone on a [LDS] mission. [END OF RECORDING ONE.] 00:33:00FH:— feel that you would like to talk about?

EK:I know that our prayers were answered. I know that my father was guided in the things that he did. He has been an example to us as a family and he was so humble. I remember reading [a] record of his life and he told in there how he felt unable to do the job of being a bishop, but if the Lord helped him that he could.

One thing that [has] happened that is [very] strong in my mind is when we were traveling. We had gone to North Africa. My husband was there two years and I was there a year and a half. When we came away we bought a little German car, and traveled up 00:34:00through Europe. We had a young army boy with us [who] could spend so many days and then we had to take him to Paris [France so] he could go back. Each day, as we were ready to go on our trip, we would offer [a] prayer that our car would function properly and that we would be safe.

On the top of this little car we had some of our freight because it was just a two- passenger car, and we had three of us and all of the things that we were taking from North Africa on that car. He had put a container on the top of the car to hold our freight and had it strapped down [very] good. As were going around the 00:35:00[French] Riviera, which is a very steep dug-way we were winding around [and we were] almost to the bottom of it. As we [were] almost down to the bottom, [we] came to a little town. He went to make a stop at an intersection and his brakes were gone. He drove just about a half a block farther and there was a garage. The liquid in those brakes had clogged up some way. If that would have happened on that mountain, where would we have been? That would have been serious.

Another testimony was: we went about a mile or two and my husband heard something click like a break. He stopped and thought it was on this container that held the freight up on the top. He shook it all around. We [went] around to one side and one of the [braces] had broken. It was the side that would have thrown [our] luggage clear off and taken our car with it, probably. To me, the Lord heard our prayers [when] we prayed for safety. In about fifteen minutes, the brakes 00:36:00of that car were fixed, and we were able to go on. But there were two [incidents] right there that happened to that car where we were saved. To me, I know that our prayers are answered if we are humble and ask the Lord for help.

FH:This is true. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] FH;Can you tell about [what] you did when you were growing up, just for fun?

EK:We used to go hunt pine nuts for fun. It was really fun, too. Sometimes we would find a nest where the squirrels had hidden them away. Maybe that was wrong to take away their savings, but we used to get quite a lot of our pine nuts that way. It was fun to go pick them up, too. Another thing we would do in Ramah 00:37:00— they had a reservoir to save water for their irrigation. Up above that reservoir was [where] we had to go around the road. We would climb up on that point and there was a hole in the point of that big rock. It was quite a feat to scale up through that and get clear up to the point. It was fun to climb those mountains. That was one of the things I used to love to do. There was not anybody who could climb to the top of a tree much faster than I did. I was a regular tomboy, I guess.

FH:How about a little later? Were you dancing?

EK:Yes. That was the main [activity] my husband and I used to love to do. After we were married, once a week they always had a Friday night dance there in Mesa. We would go to the temple, the early session in the evening. Then the whole bunch, a group [who] would get together, they called themselves [the] Let’s Eat Club. Every time we would get together, somebody would holler, “Let’s eat.” 00:38:00This whole bunch would meet on Friday nights and really have fun. We square danced and did a lot of things.

FH:Was life really a lot of fun?

EK:Yes, it was. This even carried over into our older life when we were in New Zealand. I remember we were having a Gold and Green Ball. They decided that they would have [a] special interest group do the floor show. [This] would be a real change because we usually had our youth [do it]. They were going to have us do the dancing. We went to about two practices, and nobody came but my husband and me. The teacher said just let them stay away because we will have a solo. So he and I had to dance [a] solo. They took pictures of us and it was quite fun, but it was rather frightening to be up there all by yourself doing the dance.

FH:Was this very unusual for a Gold and Green Ball? [Laughter] EK:Yes, it was. 00:39:00FH:What about music in your life? Have you enjoyed music?

EK:Immensely! I started to learn [to play] the piano, but we moved away and [I] didn’t have a piano to use, so I didn’t finish. I learned one piece and taught it to my husband. Then I forgot it and he plays it by ear, but I did love singing. We used to always be in the choir. I really loved music.

FH:Has reading meant much to you?

EK:Yes it has, a great deal. I am ashamed to say that I neglect to read as much as I should because I find myself doing things with my hands more than I do reading. I have been a person [who] has enjoyed sewing a lot and [doing] fancy work. I should read more because I know that is educational.

FH:Have you enjoyed 00:40:00arts and crafts and things you can do with your hands?

EK:Yes. One time I even did a little painting. I have a picture or two that I painted.

FH:Tell about your courtship and marriage? How did you happen to get acquainted with this fellow?

EK:[My] uncle lived right on the first corner east of where my husband’s people lived. It was a mile and a half that he had to go to high school. He would ride this fine-looking horse. I thought he was quite a sleek-looking young man. My [education] was interrupted with grandmother being sick. I didn’t graduate from the eighth grade so I took it [again] when we [moved] to Mesa. Ezra Kleinman was “DC’s” [David Conrad Kleinman] younger brother and he was a friend to all the girls. When the boys would tease us and be ornery to us, “Ez” would stick up for us. 00:41:00I thought he was about the nicest boy I had ever seen because of that characteristic. He was a little younger than me.

We went with this crowd of older [students]. “DC” was going with the bishop’s daughter. He took her to a party one night. I guess I looked kind of good to him, so he hurried and took her home. Then he came back and asked if he could take me home. He had had two dates that night and he didn’t seem to want to say goodnight. We sat out by the buggy by our gate and talked until about three o’clock in the morning. I made him a challenge that I would beat him to Sunday school. He had chores to do and I did beat him 00:42:00to Sunday school. That was the beginning of our courtship. We never had any other dates [with other people] afterwards.

FH:How long did it take you to know he was the right one?

EK:[It took] two years. Not that it took me that long to know it, but we were both young and we didn’t marry until we were twenty [years old]. He had to help his father. His father [David Franklin Kleinman] was a cattle man out on the desert. He had a big ranch out there. In the summertime “DC” would have to go out and pump the water for him. He would come in on the weekend and I would always have [a] date with him on the weekend.

When he would be gone, I would think: I am going to go with somebody else; I don’t want to go with him anymore. But by the time it was Friday night I was looking for him to come again, so I am sure he was the one from the beginning. We used to have good times. [During] our last year in school, we studied every night 00:43:00together. We made it a date that we would get our algebra, and we got 100 [score] every day. At ten o’clock he went home no matter what. We never were up any later than that on weeknights. He would get on his horse and ride up to our place and we would study together. I really enjoyed him. He was a wonderful, good, clean boy.

FH:That sounds [very] good. In fact, that sounds just about perfect. Where were you married?

EK:[We were married] in Mesa, Arizona [on July 28, 1918]. There was no temple in Mesa at that time. The bishop suggested that we marry and then make the trip to [the] Salt Lake Temple [in Salt Lake County, Utah]. We could have come here to St. George [Washington County, Utah], but he had a sister 00:44:00[who] had been married, I think, in May before we were. It was his sister, Blanche [Kleinman] and she had married Joe Adams. They wanted to go to the temple with us. So we took them and Aunt Ida, which was mother Kleinman’s [Eva Almira (Rappleye) Kleinman] younger sister, with us up to the temple to be married. We had been planning this [trip] ahead of time and there were two other cars. When you traveled by car and it takes you days to make the trip, now we make it there in one day, we planned ahead and had company to go along with us.

FH:This is always better and safer.

EK:Yes. As we came through St. George, this is [what] impressed [us] with St. George. I believe the main road used to go on Tabernacle [Street] and there were some great big shade trees by the road. We stopped to have our noon lunch. 00:45:00The lady in the house that was quite close to where we stopped saw us out there. She brought a pitcher of milk and a dish of grapes out to us. When we were deciding where we wanted to make our home later in our lives, we remembered that [incident] and thought: if people [were] that friendly here, [it] would be a nice place to live.

FH:[Did] this [have] its effect on your whole life?

EK:It certainly did.

FH:Where did you go to make your home after you were married?

EK:After we went through the temple, we brought Blanche and Joe with us and went around through New Mexico. It was a brand new Overland car. His father gave him five acres of ground and he planted a crop of cantaloupe. That crop of cantaloupes is where he got the money to buy this car. It wasn’t all paid [for], 00:46:00but [he made] a good big payment on it. We rode in that car up and [came] into Salt Lake [City and] we had to have new tires. Can you imagine that? A brand new car.

FH:The tires weren’t made to last like they are now.

EK:They were guaranteed for 500 miles. So we had to get new tires there. Then we went to New Mexico. I remember we [were] way out on some road, I can’t tell you where it was, but there wasn’t very much shade. It was hot as the dickens and we had another flat [tire]. Blanche and I hunted [for] a little bush and sat down by it. They had to put a new stem in this tire. That was quite a feat for them to get that done. We went through New Mexico and there we visited my brothers and sisters. Then [we] took Blanche and Joe on to Mesa.

FH:How long was it [before] your children started coming along? Did they come along right away?

EK:We were married in July 00:47:00and the [next year on] June 1 we had our first daughter. We named her June. When “DC” first [came] back home, we lived in the upstairs of mother Kleinman’s place. We had our bedroom up there [and] we ate with the family.

“DC” first went to work at a garage, but he didn’t like that work very much. There was a job [at] a cotton gin, where they were taking the seeds out of the cotton and milling it up, and he went to work there. He found that he was quite apt at mechanics. One of the fellows came in and was doing some electric repair work and “DC” sat and watched him. Later on, when something went wrong he said, “Now they did it this way.” The man that was fixing it 00:48:00was from [inaudible]. He looked up at him and said, “How do you know what happened?” “DC” said, “That is the way I saw him doing it.” He said, “Do you want a job [doing] electric work out [in] Dugway?” He took the job and that was the first time that we had a home by ourselves. [It] was out [in] Dugway, a little one-room cottage. That is where we [were] expecting our little daughter. When she was ready to be born, he took me back to his mother’s. She was born in the bedroom where his last brother was born. A little while later, Blanche had her first child in that same room.

FH:Let’s talk about the children for a little bit. Will you tell us the name of the first child and a little bit about her life?

EK:As I was telling you before, 00:49:00we were living out there and had close friends out there. When she was born [on] June 1, this one woman said, “If you don’t name her June, we will name her [that] anyway.” We thought that was a nice name, so we did name her June [Kleinman]. She was born June 1, .

I was so anxious to have a little girl and to be able to walk along and have her hold my hand and have people think that she was a beautiful child. I was always interested in sewing and I wanted to have her dressed real pretty. She had naturally curly hair and that very thing happened to her because I would have her dressed cute and people really admired her. She was a very sweet child and we enjoyed her immensely. We had 00:50:00quite awhile to enjoy her before we had any others. June grew up and had an interest in music. [She] learned to play the piano, and then she studied and [did] secretarial work. She married when she was about eighteen or nineteen [years old]. She married, we called him “Bud” Calhoun, but his name was Frank Lowell Calhoun. She married him and that was the beginning of their life.

FH:Where do they live now?

EK:They live in Phoenix [Arizona] still. They lived in Mesa and Tempe [Arizona] where his folks lived, and [moved] to Phoenix. That is the main [place where] they [have] lived. In fact, they lived in our little home. We bought grandmother’s home from the estate and June and “Bud” bought it from us.

FH:What does he do 00:51:00to make a living?

EK:His real profession would be a truck driver. He has [a] heavy truck and has always raised cattle. His father had a lot of cattle. He still raises cattle and [is] getting them up to be springers and then selling them. He doesn’t milk, only once in a little while.

FH:Do they have a family?

EK:They have five children. I remember the first boy. That was such a thrill to have a grandchild. His name is Carl. I think June named him after my brother Carl. He was a very attractive, pleasant little boy. When they would come up to see us, I would tell him to cry hard so mom would leave him with us, because we thought so much of him. [Laughter[ She had five children, four boys and then the girl. 00:52:00FH:Was it quite a little while before the next one of your children came along?

EK:Yes. Before we were married, “DC” [left] to go on a [LDS] mission. [The United States Government] stopped them because the government said that the church was sending their boys on missions and weren’t putting them in World War I. So they stopped sending them when he was supposed to go. We decided that we wanted to be married in the temple before he had to go in [military] service. So that was the reason we rushed [to] get married. When he came back, he went down to Phoenix and gave him his [draft] number and [had] his physical [examination]. He was to leave on [a] Thursday. Sunday morning Mother Kleinman 00:53:00[read] the newspaper and called us that the war was closed [over]. So he came that near to going.

FH:He was blessed in that, wasn’t he?

EK:Yes, he was. His folks said that if [he] wanted to still go on a mission — this was after our daughter was born — [his] father said that if [I] would keep up the insurance and take care of the baby, [that they] would send [him] on a mission. So he was called. He went to the southern states. It was under President [Charles Albert] Callas. He spent two years on his mission.

In the meantime, I worked for my uncle in Phoenix tending children while his wife was a school teacher. I [saved] enough money [that] I went to Kirkland to visit with my brothers and sisters. At that time, I hadn’t had my nurse’s training, 00:54:00but I took care of two sisters-in-law when they had their babies. Then I went out on an [Indian] reservation with Charley and [Leila] Myrtle [(Hatch) Ashcroft] and stayed with them.

Anyone that I nursed and took care of I would get a very little bit of money. I didn’t have enough money to pay the first installment on his insurance and my brother paid it for me. After that, I was able to work enough and to keep his insurance paid up and took care of our daughter. In fact, the folks had a drought and lost their cotton crop. There was such a drought that father said sometimes he went out and skinned as many as five cows that had died. 00:55:00Mother Kleinman wrote me a letter [that] said, “Ellen, you better come on home because we can’t keep “DC” out [on his mission] any longer.” I sat down and cried. I said, “I will not go a step.” It wasn’t ten days until my uncle came in, I think it was the very next week, and offered me a job cooking for the Indian school out to [inaudible]. I went out there and they paid me $50.00 a month and my board and room. I worked for them a month and then Shiprock [New Mexico] needed a cook. They would pay me $75.00 [a month], so I went in there.

This was a testimony to me, that our prayers were answered and the Lord looks after [us]. When He has a missionary in the field, if we do our part, the Lord opens the way [so] that they can fill their mission. I [received] a letter after I had been working. I hadn’t even [received] one payday in Shiprock 00:56:00and I [received] a letter from the bishop. He [wrote] that “DC” owed $150.00 and could I pay it. Now-a-days, the elders would do that, but in those days they didn’t. I had an uncle and an aunt in Kirkland [who] would be the ones that I could go to receive inspiration and help. I was on my way to see them over the weekend [when] I [received] this letter. There was a store that had a [United States] Post Office just out of Shiprock. [It] was a trading post. This man didn’t know me, but he knew my brother [so] I went to him. I said, “Will you write a money order for $150.00? When I get back I will give you half of that 00:57:00and next month I will give you the other half.” That man wrote [the] money order out and I sent it to President Callas right there. Now if that isn’t a testimony that the Lord will bless those that try to go and do His work. That, to me, was a wonderful thing. The girl, the first child, was about three years old [by] the time her daddy [came] home. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] EK:[What] was quite amazing was [that] this little child had never seen her father to know him, she had lived and slept with me all the time and [was] so close to me. She was a child that never seemed despondent about anything. I was afraid for her to go out around the yard alone for fear she would go away. One day she got out and was away from me. I brought her back and sat her on a stool to punish her. “June, you 00:58:00have to sit there for an hour on that stool.” It wasn’t two minutes until that child was singing. She had a very pleasant disposition and has been a wonderful person all of her life.

After “DC” [came] back, he came to Shiprock where we were. At that time, they were ready to electrify the building. My uncle was one of the maintenance men there and he had “DC” wire that school for him. When “DC” came back, it was amazing to me the way June was so lovingly with him. You would think, for her to have to be put into a bed by herself, that she wouldn’t have liked her father at three years old. But she never resented it one bit and she loved him. 00:59:00This is a little [bit] of humor that some of the grandchildren might be interested in. After he had wired [the] school and I had been paid $75.00 a month, he hadn’t been home a month before they cut my wages to $50.00 [a month]. There again the Lord provided.

When he had finished the wiring of that school, he went out on the [Indian] reservation to [the] Indian trading post to earn enough money to take us down to Mesa, because that was where our home was. While he was out there, I don’t know why, but he decided that he would [grow] a moustache. He has a rather wide nose, and Charley, we decided to call it Charley. [It was] just down from the nose. When I went to Gallup [New Mexico] to meet him, I took one look and turned my head. I wouldn’t kiss him. I wasn’t about to kiss some hair. When we [got] to , he [could not] wait to get home. He went to the barber shop and got that moustache 01:00:00cut off. I was glad that he didn’t enjoy [growing] the moustache because I don’t like them either. [Laughter] “DC” was employed in electrical work with the , I guess it was a water company. They make the electricity [and] have the power houses. We were sent up to Roosevelt [Arizona] and that is where our second girl was born. June was almost five years old when she was born.

FH:What was the second one’s name?

EK:[It was] Bonnie [Kleinman]. We were so thrilled we were to have the first one to have her, because we had been separated so long. June wanted company, too. We moved up there in this house kind of on the side of the hill. We had an outside toilet. 01:01:00We had Aunt Ida come up to deliver the baby. [That] night she gave me a dose of castor oil to hurry things along, and it was a wonder that the baby was born in the house, because I was stationed at that outside toilet for so long. When I went in [the house] this time I laid down on the bed and kind of gave a moan, and here was Aunt Ida right by the side of me. It wasn’t long until we had another little girl. We were so grateful for Aunt Ida because she delivered every one of our babies, but the first one.

We named her Bonnie because there was a young girl up there and she was such a sweet little girl. We liked the name. She has been our Bonnie-lassie ever since. Bonnie was a child that grew up to be a pleasant person and [was] a very generous little child. When she was very young, 01:02:00I was president of the Mutual and had to take the girls up to the girl’s home for summer. I took Bonnie along with me. She [came down with] polio while we were up there. She said, “Oh, mama, my head just goes up and comes down.” We had [a] big room and all the girls [were] sleeping on the floor [with] Bonnie right there with them, [but] not one of them [came down with] it. I knew there was something seriously wrong with her because as I would pack her around with me, her little legs would just flop. We took her back home and the doctor decided that it was polio.

It left her with a twisted ankle and one foot and leg a little smaller than the other one. When she [was] over it about a year — and this ankle was beginning to turn worse, “DC’s” brother, Jack 01:03:00and [his wife] Hazel [Kleinman, who] live in Los Angeles [California] suggested that they take her there and just pretend that they were taking care of her [to] get her in [the] Veterans Hospital. They took her and put her in the Veteran’s Hospital. They operated on her and put a bone nail in there to straighten that ankle. At the present time, she wears a five-size shoe on one foot and a seven-size on the other [foot]. [They] had to build the heel up. She has limped a little bit, but she has always been a child [who] never let anyone exceed her. She skipped rope with the [other youngsters and] did everything. It seems like it develops a determination in someone when they have a handicap like that. She has been a child [who] has brought much joy into our lives. She was one that always was looking after the other person. That is the reason, I am sure, that she fell in love with her husband, because his mother had died and he was alone and wanted to be loved. Bonnie fell 01:04:00in love with him. He was in [military] service and was stationed by Mesa. That is where she met him.

FH:She was what he needed and he was what she needed.

EK:Evidently. So “DC” was working up to Kingman [Arizona at] the time they were married. He is not a member of the church which was rather sad [for] us because June and Bud had gone to the temple, but Warren [Farrer Ingram] is a very wonderful man. He is so good to Bonnie and his children. He sent his son on a [LDS] mission. He is a very wonderful boy and someday, I am sure, he will [join the church]. [END OF RECORDING TWO. END OF INTERVIEW.] [RECORDING THREE IS BLANK.]