Interview with Rosalie Maureen (Walker) Bunker

Rosalie Maureen () Bunker was interviewed on April 17, 1969 in by Fielding H. Harris, a representative of Voices of Remembrance Foundation. She related her personal history of living in various parts of , and .

FH:What is your full name?

RB:[My name is] Rosalie Maureen () Bunker.

FH:[What] is your birth date?

RB:[I was born] May 9, 1927.

FH:[Where were you] born?

RB:[I was born] Sunderland, .

FH:[What was] your father’s name?

RB:[My father’s name was] Arthur Walker.

FH:[What was] your mother’s [full] name?

RB:[My mother’s name was] Annie Margaret (Williams) []. Williams was an adopted name.

FH:Do you know her real [surname]?

RB:No.

FH:Is that the only record you know about?

RB:That is the only name she [used].

FH:What are some 00:01:00of the [events] that occurred in your early childhood?

RB:I do not remember [the place] where I was born. I was two [years old] when we left there [and] moved to a little place called Three Briery Vale []. I do remember [about that place when] I must have been three or four [years old]. I remember things that happened in that house. It was around the corner from The [Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. I guess one of the outstanding [events] was that dad mentioned he was going to bring some Mormon missionaries home. I do not actually remember this, but I remember my mother telling me. He had been to a street meeting. 00:02:00She said she was not going to have them in the house. [Laughter] But he had already invited them so they came. One was called Lowell Rich. He was from []. The other was Clarence Taylor from [City, ]. It was mother [who became] interested.

FH:After they [had been] there, she felt a little different.

RB:She was the one [who] became interested [in the church]. Not having known her real parents, she felt a need for something, maybe more security, so she started going to church.

I do remember small incidences there. I remember a dress that dad had [knit] for me. I remember if anything happened, if I hurt myself, I always wanted my dad to take me to see the parrots and fishes. There were winter gardens in the town [with] parrots and fishes.

Dad 00:03:00worked at the hospital and his schedule, due to the clinic, was a little different, so he was home in the daytime. He would take me. He was very proud of me. I was big. [Laughter] I was born big [and] he thought a lot of me.

FH:Was this trip to the parrots and fishes a reward or something to soothe the troubled waters?

RB:It was. I do not remember too many things that happened there. I remember moving to a larger home which was further away from the church, but it was nearer dad’s work and nearer the school.

My sister 00:04:00passed [with a] scholarship to go to secondary school. It was quite close for dad and “Marge” [Marjorie Walker]. It was an upstairs house, . We [were] out of touch with the missionaries for awhile [during the] move. Then one day two missionaries came. I guess mother had a friend who was going to put them up and she did not have room [for them] just then. She thought maybe mother would put them up for a few weeks. So they came [to our house]. One was called Sylvan Needham and one was Heber Bolden. Sylvan was from []. It was to his home that I went [later].

FH:Was that where you went when you came to ?

RB:Yes. I read a letter that his dad had. He said 00:05:00he felt, as he stood on the doorstep of our house then, that this was not going to be an ordinary call. I read this letter and so it was a testimony to me. I guess it must have been about two years later. Mother said probably most of the converting was done after midnight. [Laughter] FH:Did they stay up late talking?

RB:[It was] pretty late. It took a lot of converting for mother to join, but when she did she never ever wavered.

FH:[Did] she wait until she really knew?

RB:Yes. My older sister [Marjorie Walker] joined at that time, too.

FH:What about your father?

RB:He did not and yet he always stuck up for the missionaries. If anybody outside said anything against the church he was going to —. 00:06:00He thought a lot of them. Some of the men at work used to say to him, “Are you afraid that the Mormons will run off with your daughters?” He said, “They could not find a better husband.” He smoked all his life and that was the big trouble. 00:07:00It was there when I first started to go to school. I was five [years old] in May. We [started] to school as soon as we had our [fifth] birthday. The first day at school I met a girl called Muriel Morrison. We have been friends ever since. That is her [picture] on the wall.

FH:Do you still write [to her]?

RB:Yes, we still write. We were [very] good friends although we had our other friends too. It did not make any difference the friendship between her and me. She was not LDS, but they were good religious people, Methodist. I made other friends, too.

FH:Did she ever discuss the church with you?

RB:We did, especially in [the] later years. Her mother and dad were a little against it. It had not been many years since they mobbed the missionaries. 00:08:00People did not feel too good toward Mormons at that time, but things have changed a lot in the last few years. I know she does not have the feeling against it that I think maybe she did at that time due to her parents.

In this house is where the missionaries met [as] their district quarters. It was a big home and so we had lots of missionaries stay with us there. G. [George] Homer Durham stayed with us and he was one of dad’s favorites. He has come quite a long ways in his life and yet, I think, he has always been humble. I used to like him. 00:09:00When Sylvan Needham died recently, he [had been] staying with Homer Durham in . He wrote to my sister [Marjorie] and told her. We started school when we were five [years old]. You were in the infant school first. When you [were] seven [years old] you went to the junior school.

FH:Was this like kindergarten or was this like our first grade?

RB:The infant school would be kindergarten through maybe [the] first and second grades. When you were seven years old, you [went] into what we call the junior school for two years. [You] would be about nine [years old when you finished]. I think [that] was when we [had] divided [classes]. The boys went to the boys’ school and the girls went 00:10:00to the girls’ senior school. When we were eleven [years old] we had to sit [for] this scholarship [examination]. We went to the secondary school for about three days [to] take all these examinations. Only so many passed. We would not know if we passed until we saw our name in the newspaper.

FH:What did it mean if you passed?

RB:Following the next summer’s vacation we would go to the secondary school. I think at the time the reason I wanted to go to secondary school was because they had six weeks [of] summer vacation and the other school only had four [weeks]. To me, that was the big thing to grab and it was a nicer school, too. [Laughter] It had gardens and playgrounds. It was near our home, too.

FH:What happened to those [students] who did not pass? 00:11:00RB:Those who did not pass would stay and go on to the ordinary school and leave when they were about fourteen [years old]. It used to be fourteen [and] then they raised the age to fifteen [years old]. They would [study] ordinary subjects — geography and history. They did not [study] foreign languages like they did in the secondary school or [take] chemistry [classes].

FH:Was this a way of getting the [students] who had a little more ability separated?

RB:They would get the cream [students]. My French teacher used to drum it into us that we were the cream of the crop. Heaven knows what the skim milk was like! [Laughter] I guess [there were] about ninety girls [who] would go each year to the secondary school. There were three grades there. I always did like school. I had a sister [Kathleen “Kath” Walker] who did not like school. At the time, [they thought] she had diphtheria so she did not take [the examination for] the scholarship. [It was mandatory that] you take it. If you were ill at the time, then you would have to take it [later]. Nobody could say that they did not get a chance. 00:12:00The next year, when I was eleven [years old], I went to secondary school. This was quite a new experience. We had a different teacher for each subject and French [class]. Not too different, though. We did not start [learning] Latin until we were in the second grade. Then chemistry and physics, subjects that we had not had before.

FH:Is this on the level of our high school?

RB:Yes, or junior high, possibly. [For] some [students who] did not pass to go to secondary school, there was another school that they went to. It was a good school, but you did not feel it was quite the honor 00:13:00in going there. They did more secretarial work, like typing. They did not do any typing in the secondary school which I do not think was good. Maybe they do now, as things are quite different. I never learned to type and it has been quite a handicap to me. My older sister went to night school to learn. She had a little more ambition than I did. After a year there, then [World] War [II] [started].

FH:Did you have school plays and musicals?

RB:We had very few extracurricular things like that. We had a choir. We did not have to [participate] in that, but I liked music so I [did]. We did a musical play once. We had a lot of sports in school, but we did not do much about playing with other schools. We did not do any of that, it was within the school. They were keen on sports. We had physical education every day 00:14:00and some good pushing teachers. We played hockey and net ball — net ball when the weather was better and hockey when it [was not]. Net ball is like basketball. The boys’ school was next to the girls’ but did not have anything to do with the girls’ school. Their school leaving certificate was The Oxford and ours was The Durham. We were not together at all.

We had a party at Christmas. We divided into houses. They were named after the rivers — Riveresk, Ness, Strath and . I was in Riveresk. They each had a different color. This was that first year, 00:15:00but when the war came I do not think they did any of that. I know they did not. We had to wear uniforms and we had to wear them [or we would be put out of school].

FH:Was wearing uniforms common in ? Did people wear a uniform to designate what their [profession] was?

RB:We did not [wear uniforms] in grade school. The secondary schools all had uniforms and you were compelled to wear them. I do not think ours was as nice as some. It was navy blue tunic, butcher blue blouses, long black stockings which we hated and we had to wear a hat. I guess that is why I never wear a hat now. Discipline was very strict, a lot more so than in [the] schools here. Children were not as forward as they are here.

FH:No misbehavior in school like we have now. 00:16:00RB:I would not speak for now, but in those days we looked up to our teachers. They were something a little different from [other] humans. We respected them more. We had some interesting teachers, but there again I do not want to spend a long time on that.

FH:Do you feel your teachers were highly qualified?

RB:I think most of them were brilliant women, especially the principal. She was [very] brilliant. To teach in a secondary school, you had to graduate from a university which was a four-year really stiff course. A lot did not pass through. I went to a teacher training college which was in and there were some [who] did not 00:17:00pass that. They had taken the full course, but they failed in some way the final examination.

FH:How long were you at the teacher training college?

RB:I went two years to that [college]. What we did in two years was easily equal to what they do in four [years] up here. I remember working on Christmas Day to get some of [my] work done. We really had to work to get through.

FH:Did you enjoy school?

RB:I really did. I enjoyed holidays, but then I was always glad to be back at school. 00:18:00Mother was very lenient with us. She did not expect us to do a lot of housework which maybe had its disadvantages. She wanted us to do well in school and in music.

FH:Was [this] almost necessary [to] the heavy school curriculum?

RB:It was. She always wanted me to do a lot [with] music. When we were in college, mother was ill. We had to pitch in at home, go to the hospital [and] it really took all we had. My older sister had gone back to college [by] then.

FH:Was your mother in the hospital during this time?

RB:Yes, during those two years. We nearly lost her, but she got well. 00:19:00She left [the hospital] and even came to . I taught a year after I [was] through [college].

FH:Where did you teach?

RB:In . It was . It was supposed to be one of the choice schools. I think the reason I [was accepted] there was because I could play the piano. I had two piano teachers. Miss [Violet] Smith was my first teacher and she taught me a lot, especially the rudiments. We took examinations and really had to know those rudiments inside out. Every Saturday, as a child, I used to go to my piano lesson. Then I would go down to see my girlfriend. We had moved from this larger home 00:20:00on to a smaller bungalow [because] mother was thinking the girls would be getting married and they would not need such a big home. She missed her garden. We called it a garden, you call it a yard. A lot of homes in do not have any grass. Some of the homes are right on the road. It was paved stones in front. One home where we lived was like that. It was large. Mother liked green trees and shrubs.

FH:Did she have a green thumb?

RB:She did. She had a beautiful garden. We moved to a new bungalow on the outskirts of the town. Besides, the missionaries did not want to stay with us once [my parents] were 00:21:00converted. They [wanted] go to another home then.

FH:Did you feel left out because of that?

RB:No. That was the point: to go and stay with another family to convert them. Besides, it was hard work for mother to look after them. We moved and the home we lived in was near my school. It was on the outskirts of the town and was near a hill. On the top of this hill there was a reservoir. Mother always figured that was probably why we [had] a lot of bombing around our home because of this water that shone in the night.

After my first year at high school, I was evacuated to the country. This was not a compulsory thing. We could choose. We went to the school. If mother had been home 00:22:00she would not have wanted me to go, but she had gone to visit her old home in [] after many years. At the time we signed the papers, she was still gone. [It was] just before the outbreak of the war, but they were expecting it. I begged my dad to sign these papers because I thought being evacuated would be a little bit like these boarding schools. We used to read these school girl stories. I read a little and they had so much fun at these boarding schools. I thought it would be fun. Most of the school was evacuated because if we had stayed we would have had very little [education]. They had one or two teachers left. I do not think they taught in the school itself, maybe in the homes.

FH:[Did] you say [that] you expected the war to start?

RB:All the people did.

FH:Were you warned ahead of time?

RB:I am sure they were. People were very much on the alert.

I mean, 00:23:00had not Hitler marched into ? There was a lot of talk. I was not too interested in those things at the time. I remember going to town with mother. This was when I was eleven [years old]. We went to a movie. We saw the notices that said there would be a blackout. War itself was declared on a Sunday morning in . I can remember clearly hearing Prime Minister [Neville Chamberlain] declare war on the radio. Just as soon as they declared war, the siren went [off], but it was some of our own planes [flying over]. 00:24:00They were expecting something bad. It was very shortly after that we were evacuated. We did not know where we were going.

We met at the school. We [had] these big haversacks to carry our things in. Everything had to be marked. Then we were taken into the country, but we went a different route from what the train would normally go. We landed in the most beautiful place. It was in Yorkshire []. Anybody who has been there knows it is a beautiful city. It was a small country town kind of place with a market square and a few church spires. The River Swale runs down below the remains of the castle [that was] overlooking it. There were beautiful walks along the river which we used 00:25:00to frequent quite often.

FH:[Was] this green country [with] a lot of moisture in the air?

RB:Yes, it was beautiful. It was quite a hilly town. We met at a school and then some of us were taken to little villages outside. I went to Gilling, a place called Gilling West. We were billeted out to people. They were given a small allowance to keep us. The first place where I was, I do not think I will say too much about it. It was a lovely place. It was the lodge of a millionaire. It was right at the edge of his grounds. The back was like woods. They had hens. This was all new to me [being] from the city. We used to [pick] blackberries in the woods. We could cut through the grounds of the estate 00:26:00to get to the village where most of the girls were. There was another girl with me at this lodge. It was not too long before I [was] moved to the village because it had disadvantages there. It was out and away. I moved in with very good people. They were Catholic people, but I remember them as being very kind. I will always remember them. There was their brother, John. He was about thirty [years old] at the time and their two girls, Margaret and Ruth, were in their twenties.

FH:What was their [last] name?

RB:Collins. They had a big home. The biggest part of it was not even furnished. They were kind to us. There were three girls there at first — Kathleen, Marjorie Shorten and myself. We had a lot of fun 00:27:00together. Although three was not too good because either two of us were friends or the other two [were]. We had to go to the city [for] school. I believe we had a special bus at first. Later on, gradually the girls dwindled [and returned] back home. Then we had a pass to go around.

FH:Were you forced to stay there?

RB:No, there was no force about it. You could go home whenever you wanted to. I was there over a year. I was homesick all the time even though I had a lot of fun. This is when I gained my testimony of the gospel. They did not have a LDS church in this little village or even in , either. I could not have gone 00:28:00if there had been. I went to the Church of England in the morning. You are familiar with, “Dearly beloved brethren,” (in a low voice). Same old prayers every week.

FH:We are not familiar with that. This is new to me.

RB:I can remember the vicar. He was a typical stuffed-shirt Englishman, but I imagine he was a kind man.

FH:Did he mean well?

RB:I think so. At night I went to the . This was more like home. It was more like the LDS [church] to me. I even [was able] to play the organ there a time or two because the organist did not turn [show] up. I was only about twelve [years old] at the time. I had to try it. That was unusual for me because I was very quiet, not a bit forward. I always 00:29:00stood back. I have made up for it ever since. I learned to swim there. There was a beck [stream]. It was like a little canal. We used to go there. There were a lot of little fish. I am going to take the children there when we go [back there].

After about a year, there had not been anything doing as far as the war went except one raid on the town. Mother [was] thinking I would hear something about it [and] sent a telegram to say, “Do not worry. We are all safe.” Then I did worry! [Laughter] Evacuation did not work because, on the whole, people did not want other children in their homes. 00:30:00When most of the [students] had gone back, mother decided it would be a lot better for me to be back home. She did not want me [away] anyway. She thought we would be better [if we were] all together.

I went back home and school was different in some ways. They were much slacker on [wearing] the uniform. We did have uniforms, but we were allowed to wear socks instead of long black stockings which were much better to us. We still had to wear our hats and tunics. When we [went] into the sixth grade we were allowed to wear a navy dress. We felt [very] grown up when we were in the sixth grade — sixth form, as we called [it], because then we would become pre-fect. We were put in over another class. If the teachers had a meeting then we would go 00:31:00and sit with the class. [END OF RECORDING ONE.] RB:One thing I think was [very] nice in the schools over there, and they cannot do it here because of the law, but I still think it was a good thing. We always had a little assembly in the morning before we started classes. All the [students were] together and everybody just figured on being there. People did not slough it. We would sing a hymn and have a prayer. If there were any announcements the principal would give [them] to the whole school. This gave a better feeling, I believe, in the school. We felt more [like] one instead of just going to our different classes and spreading out.

FH:This would have a good effect.

RB:We did it all the way through school. We said the Lord’s Prayer. Jewish girls would be excused from 00:32:00that if they wanted to be. Anybody, if they had any religious feelings about it, could be [excused]. I only remember the Jewish girls who did not go to religion [classes]. We had a school motto. It was a little verse written over the auditorium and it was: “The world is my country. All men are my brothers and to do good is my religion.” We also had a school song. They called the school The Bede Collegiate Girls’ School then. I believe it is changed now. Bede, the Venerable Bede, translated part of the [Holy] Bible in . The school was named was after Bede. There are a lot of things named after him. 00:33:00I have a [strong] feeling for the school. We have a book called The Bede and I still like looking through it. I do not think any of the teachers would be the same now. The college I was [in] was much smaller. There were only about 120 girls there. It was a two-year college. It has grown a lot since I was there, but it was quite small. I think being small we could have the close spirit.

FH:Do they still have the boys and girls separated in school in ?

RB:I think so. They are getting away from passing the scholarship examination. In some places, they do not even have to [take it]. I do not know how they determine who goes and who does not. I suppose from the scholastic records.

FH:It is a little like ours. 00:34:00RB:Everybody does not go to it. There are just certain ones. It is quite a drawback if you do not go to the secondary school because you can not go into teaching or be a doctor or [professions] like that.

FH:Do all professional people go?

RB:They have to go to high school. Most of the girls [who] did not, would work in a store or in an office and maybe [go to] night school. Some children did not want to go to secondary school. My girlfriend was quite as smart as I was, but she did not like it.

FH:Did you maintain activity in the church during these years?

RB:Yes. During the war a few members dropped off, 00:35:00but I think we became closer during the war years. We did not have blackouts at first. A blackout was very strictly kept. If you showed a little light at your window, the wardens were there to fine you. You paid [the fine] or else. We did not have blackouts at church for quite awhile, so they had the meetings in the homes. We would take turns [going] around [to] different homes. I think we [grew] to know the members better — the few members that we had. The average attendance would only be about twenty [people]. That would be a good number at Sacrament Meeting.

FH:Did everyone in the church have [an] opportunity to do a lot of things?

RB:It was just a branch. We did not have the [positions] to do.

FH:Did you give talks 00:36:00 regularly?

RB:We had to. I know when I was about fourteen [years old] I was on [a] circuit to speak. We younger ones usually put on our own [talks]. We did not have to travel like the [older people]. We did not have missionaries.

FH:Does this mean you visited other branches to talk?

RB:We were young. We did not have to travel like the older ones did. I did travel with my mother and sister [Marjorie] a lot.

FH:Was your mother active?

RB:Very active. She was Relief Society president for years. I think she was until she became bedridden. My sister [Marjorie] was the genealogist.

FH:Were you [the] branch organist?

RB:Yes, for quite a few years. I was Sunday school superintendent for about a year before I left. 00:37:00I did teach a little in Primary when we had Primary, but we did not have Primary much. After the war they started having it. Some of the homes had been bombed out. These large homes, which were all around the church, they started renting them into apartments. We had two children [who] came to Primary. They joined the church and now they are living in [City]. They have been to the temple. That was [because of attendance in] Primary. Their parents have not joined. [Inaudible] FH:What do you remember about your father? 00:38:00RB:He was not a large man in stature, just average build. He mostly did clerical work. That is what his work was. He kept immaculate books. His writing was beautiful. He could write like [a] copy clerk. During the war, when they were short staffed at the hospital, he had to do some of the things for the patients. He would see the patients and have to prescribe [medication]. He worked in skin diseases.

FH:Was his training in the medical [field]?

RB:Not really, it was clerical, but he liked hospital work. He had a nephew who became quite a clever surgeon, so I imagine it was in his blood. 00:39:00If he had gone into it earlier I think he would have been quite good. His father, my grandfather [Samuel Walker], was considered the village doctor though he used mostly herbs. People would come to him. He was quite well-to-do. My father was from a well-to-do family. He was the youngest and was a little bit spoiled when he was young. He had had too many advantages. I think that is probably why he started out in an opera company. His father thought that was not really a good thing for a man to do. He was at this hospital, the Royal Infirmary, quite a number of years. He liked it [and] seemed to enjoy hospital life. He was a good man, honest. He was very fussy about personal cleanliness. I am sure as he [became] older I think he shaved three times a day, always twice. 00:40:00Mother used to say she thought he was silly to shave as much. He was a little bit too fussy.

FH:Was he good to you?

RB:Yes. His family meant a lot to him. Though the home was divided with him not being a member. His likes and mother’s likes were not the same. Mother loved the quiet peaceful country life and dad loved the bustle of the town. Blackpool was his favorite holiday resort where the illuminations and the crowds are. I guess I take after my mother because I do not like city life too much. Once in awhile it is fine, but I am glad to get out of it.

Mother had a harder life when she was young 00:41:00so she wanted to make things easy for us. All she had had was a village education and yet she was very well- educated, maybe more self-educated. Mother and dad were [very] good spellers. They knew the geography. They did not think I was so good at these [subjects]. They thought I learned a lot of things that probably would not be useful. I have not used a lot of the things I have learned. She was quite literary.

FH:Do you remember your father’s parents?

RB:No, because they were dead before I was born. I have hardly even seen a picture [of them]. I had not seen a picture until about three years ago when my sister [Marjorie] came. She had gone to see an uncle in and 00:42:00he had given her a little locket with a picture.

FH:Do you have an uncle in ?

RB:His wife was my dad’s sister [Helen “Nell”], but she has died. He is still there. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] RB:During the war we lived in on the northeast coast. It was a town that was opposite . After that first year we thought we were not going to have any bombing, but then they really started. Our town was very badly hit. Apparently, the guns were too high at first and the planes would swoop down underneath the range of the guns and drop their bombs. 00:43:00They may have mistaken our town for which is a larger city. We would have thought they would get it worse than we did. We sometimes figured maybe they mistook us for them.

Ours was a shipbuilding city. They [received] the blue ribbon one year for building the most ships. We were on the mouth of the River Wear. We had a beautiful beach which was closed for a number of years. As soon as it was opened, dad was down there swimming. That is how he [came down with] pneumonia. He was a big swimmer. I guess that is where my children get their talents from. He would swim way out to the pier.

FH:Did you like to swim too?

RB:I am scared of water. I guess I took after my mother. Mother said that God helps those who 00:44:00help themselves. So she insisted on having an air raid shelter. A lot of the neighbors would not have one because it messed the garden up or they thought it would. These were shelters. They were made of corrugated iron and they were half down in the ground. Mother was very talented. All the neighbors said if they needed anything they would have to come to the Walkers’ because between us we could always help one way or another. Mother could fix things and she fixed our air raid shelter so it was pretty comfortable as we spent many an hour in it. There was one week when we 00:45:00went in every night about nine and did not get out until about six in the morning. [ shelters were six curved panels of galvanized steel designed to accommodate six people issued free by the British government to create shelters in suitable basements.] FH:Did the air raids come mostly at night?

RB:Yes. We had one or two day air raids, but mostly [they were] at night — especially on moonlit nights. When it was cloudy and bad weather, we would figure that we probably would not have one and we very seldom did. But it seemed like we had an awful lot of moonlit nights.

FH:How long did the air raid go on?

RB:[When] we heard the siren, there were two older couples [who] came [to] our shelter because they did not have one. Mother said they better come [to] ours. It was better than getting hurt. My sister went next door with her little girl. She had a little girl to keep then because the man next door was on [the] night shift a lot. For company for his wife and her 00:46:00little boy, “Marge” went over there. Sometimes when the siren was going, the bombs would be dropping. You would have to wait and see. We found a few bits of shrapnel in the garden so you had to be careful. Then sometimes the all clear would go a few minutes after the siren went [off]. You hated to pick your children up from their sleep if it was going to be like that. I never slept through any of those air raids. We sat down in this small place. I thought it was quite an adventure at the time. One of the neighbors used to bring some good candy. I remember we would feel scared when we would hear the bombs going.

I remember once it was [very] bad. Dad insisted on staying outside to watch for incendiary bombs, which were fire bombs. I do not know 00:47:00if he would [have been] too much good, but he would stay outside in the lobby of the house. This one [time], we could tell it was really close. All around us bricks and glass and everything [was] falling. After it was over, he came and said, “Our house is down.” That is all it took for mother to get out quickly. When she got out it was not [down], but there was a big hole in the roof. My first thought was if the piano had been hurt because this piano was my pride and joy. Homer Durham on his way home from his [LDS] mission stopped at our house just to play the piano. Anyway, the piano was alright, but the house was [very] badly damaged that time.

The [British] government sent men to fix it. We had quite a lot of these nights. I do not know how often [the air raids] came. 00:48:00There was one week when we were in [the shelter] every night. Toward the end of the war, it gradually eased off. There was a lot of sickness then. You live at such a pitch for so long and then it is taken away from you and the letdown is bad on the health [and brings on] a lot of nervous trouble.

FH:How did you happen to decide to come to ?

RB:Mother thought about sending me during the war, but then that ship went down with all the children on [it]. My sister [Marjorie] thought of coming to to [stay with my] auntie.

FH:Was this a ship you had contemplated coming on?

RB:No. You did not get a choice 00:49:00of ship.

FH:Did you have to go [on the ship] they decided for you?

RB:If you signed up to come, then they would —.

FH:Was this to [where] you would have been sent?

RB:No. I was coming to [stay with] the same people I came to later on. I prayed that I would not have to come because I was too homesick at the time. This was when I was evacuated. I was only about twelve or thirteen [years old]. I did not expect a ship to go down, but I was glad I did not have to come then.

After the war, they [the Needhams] wrote and asked if I would like to come. They were jewelers. The father of [the] missionary [who] stayed with us was quite wealthy. He had a daughter living with him and, for company for her, he had a few girls stay there and go to school. I guess maybe it was his idea that after he had gone I would probably stay with her, 00:50:00but then I met my husband and changed plans. I went to college there for two years. I enjoyed it. I worked very hard.

FH:Did you come across on a ship?

RB:It was called the Marine Jumper. I had had a chance of coming on one of the larger ships, but I had to wait until the end of school. So I came on a small one. I was [very] glad because it was all one class. I met some nice people on the ship. We had Negro waiters. I had not traveled very much in other than I had been to dad’s old home. I had been around to , mother’s old home, and . She was raised 00:51:00just outside of at Heyford, a little place. It was quite well-known because there were a lot of American troops there. Other than those [trips], I had not really traveled much — so this was new to me.

FH:Was this a real adventure?

RB:It was. I did not get seasick, not really. The first day I felt a bit joggily [groggy] so I stayed in bed. I had met a girl. Her mother had met my mother at the dock. She was younger than me and she thought it would be nice if we [became] friendly. She was quite a nice girl. I met a rather nice young man who was [very] handsome. He was Greek. We called him Louie. I met some nice families. I did a little bit of babysitting for a couple [who were] sick. I [had] taught 00:52:00school so I was well versed and was good at telling stories. I liked teaching little children. I enjoyed having the American meals. I saw some watermelon for the first time. I did not know what it was. It took us about eight days [to go] across [the ocean].

When I [arrived] in [City, I was] told to get my train ticket there. The Cook’s [hired] man would be there. I could not see anybody. Maybe it took me a little too long to get through customs. I [took] a cab up to Cook’s place in town. I guess I [had] some kind of a ticket, I don’t remember, but I know I went up to that place. I had no idea how to get back to the 00:53:00station. When I got outside, it was in the middle of a block and there were cabs going here and there and everywhere but I did not know how to get one. I really did not know the way, but I saw a man who looked like he was standing outside of a candy store. He was an elderly man. He was standing, probably waiting for his wife to come out, [by] what looked like a candy store. I asked him the way to the station. He said, “I will take you there.” I was [very] leery. Here was I in a strange country and did not know a soul there.

FH:Were you entirely alone?

RB:I was all alone. I guess I had a little suitcase with me. My other cases were back at the station. They sent them on from the boat. 00:54:00I must have looked pretty dubious. He said, “You are from . I know you are. I was in during World War I, and people were so good to me during that time. This is all I can do to help you now.” I knew that if he knew Carlisle, he had been there because was just a small place, but it was near us. It was in our [church] district. So I went with him. I guess this was an answer to prayer. He carried my suitcase. I kept a close look on that man. He got me a cab and went with me. He told the cab driver, “You just charge her the very minimum. Do not charge any extra. Tell her all the places as you are going along.” 00:55:00So the cab driver did. When we [arrived] at the station this elderly man took me into the station and I met some people from the boat. I introduced him. I guess this man from the boat thought I had been crazy.

This man had some connections where this other man was going and he gave him some addresses to get in touch with to get him work. I guess he was fairly well to do. He lived in a hotel there in [City]. I wished I had asked his name because I would have written him and thanked him for it, but I never thought [of it] at the time. Anyway, I got on the train. Coming over, I met a [very] nice girl. She was older than me, but we [became] friendly so it made the time go [by]. She helped me along telling me the things to do. I did not have a because I just [traveled] 00:56:00third class. I pushed the seat back and slept [well]. When I [arrived at] [], people met me. I had not seen this missionary since I was a little girl. It was about fourteen, fifteen years [later]. I knew him. He would not have known me, I guess.

FH:Was he married by this time?

RB:Yes, he was married [and] had children.

FH:Did you come to his home?

RB:No, [I went to] his father’s home. I thought was the most beautiful city. The weather was marvelous. To me, it was wonderful. We had a lovely summer that year. I stayed 00:57:00until school was ready [to start] and I went to [Utah State College].

FH:How did the winters strike you?

RB:I did not feel the cold. There was snow, but I did not feel the cold because they had warm houses.

FH:Was the cold where you came from a damp cold?

RB:It was cold! [Laughter] The north winds would come across the sea and hit into our town. I never really did get used to that climate. My chest always seemed to hurt. I felt better when I [came] to . I think it was better for me, a dry climate, until I came down here and got hay fever and asthma. The first time I [came] into Bunkerville — it was the Bermuda grass there. I enjoyed college in . 00:58:00FH:Did you go [to college for] two years?

RB:Two years. That is all I needed to go because I sent [for] my credentials from . It was [very] hard because we do not have credits there.

FH:Did you write them a letter?

RB:My sister spent a long time with the principal there, figured out and counted how many hours I had. It was through her, Marjorie [], my older sister. She is like that. She would go out of her way to do things for people.

FH:Do you have love for your sister?

RB:I appreciate [her]. We are not very alike. I have two sisters 00:59:00who are quite a little older than me. In some ways, I think, I was closer to my older sister’s [daughter] because she was raised with us during the war. I was close to her, but she grew up with me, Valerie. In fact, when I came to , it was Valerie [who] I missed. I think you do miss children.

FH:How did your new home in affect you? Were you happy here?

RB:I was homesick. I was happy. They were [very] good to me.

FH:Does still seem real close to you?

RB:Some things [do], yes, and yet some things seem a long way away. 01:00:00FH:Have you come to feel this is your country?

RB: I am a citizen, but I will always be British, I think. I cannot wipe that out.

FH:Is this something that is inside?

RB:It is. You cannot wipe that out. I suppose I am English. Whenever they talk about in church, I always sit up more and listen. It is home. I was happy there, I guess that is why. If I had not had a happy childhood I suppose I would like to have forgotten it, but I was happy there. I cried the whole night before I came. I did not want to leave mother. The only thing that [brought] me here was she said it was the way for the whole family to get to the temple. We did not have a temple there then 01:01:00and I thought gradually they would all come. But here I am and there they are. [Laughter] FH:Did they all stay? Did your mother come later?

RB:Mother came [later].

FH:Did she stay?

RB:I met my husband [Kent Edward Bunker] and [my] dad was back [in ]. Between us we decided that we could send [for mother] when we [were] married and have her come. It had been mother’s greatest wish to come to ever since she was a girl. She had had the chance to go then, but her mother did not think it was a good place. [She] was her foster mother and she would not let her go with her family. This was forty years after that that she had written to these people. I was determined that she go to while she was here and she did. She met them after forty years. 01:02:00Everything was just wonderful to her. There was no letdown. She dreamed about it and everything was marvelous. [END OF RECORDING TWO.] RB:So many people look forward to going to a place and then you are disappointed when you get there, but not with her. People were so good to her. Before mother came, I had my sister, Kathleen [] come. She was not LDS, but she liked to travel a lot. I wanted to have her here so she came and we [rented] a little apartment in . That was after I [was] through college and I [was] teaching school there. She worked.

FH:What age group did you teach in school?

RB:I taught second grade at the school. 01:03:00I really enjoyed it. We had a good principal, Miss Buist. I think she was exceptionally good. I had a wonderful class. I do not think I could have had a better class. They were good students. Then, after that year, [ and I] came down and [were] married.

FH:What did you do during your growing up years to have fun?

RB:Yes. Some of the games [we] played were like they are here. When I [came] here I heard the same little verses when the [children] were skipping that we said over there. There were a few games that were different. 01:04:00There were different seasons as there are here. In the summer we would have exchange scraps. My daughters know about that because I [had] some scraps to show them. We would buy these sheets of pictures. They were kind of pictures that stood out, embossed. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] RB:We did modern dance at college. We did not have to do it. This is in now. Up at we went to dances, but I did not do too much physical education up there. I did take quite a bit of music [classes].

FH:Has music played a big part in your life?

RB:Yes. I have had a lot of enjoyment from it. I learned to play the violin, but piano mainly. I had two teachers. The second teacher was a man. I learned [studied] for a few years. I never really did get exceptionally [good] because I did not have the time. I did not give the time to it. Maybe an hour a day was probably the most [practice] I ever did. We had a 01:05:00musical group among the neighbors in our community at home. We would get together and have musical evenings. We enjoyed [that and] I missed that when I [came] here.

Before I left, my sister [Kathleen] had me make a recording. This was not done very much then. I went down when I went to see her before I left. She was in [] at the time. I played and sang mother’s favorite song. When they had one of these musical get-togethers I did not tell my mother about [the record]. This neighbor said, “We have a record here.” I do not know exactly what he said. He said it was of a northern star that she would be interested to hear. Mother knew straight away that it was me. 01:06:00My niece [Valerie] was not so sure it was me. You sound kind of different on a record. Then at the end when I said something and sent a message to her and put her name in then she said, “I did not know it was Rosalie.” They had a lot of parks in the towns in which were so different from the parks here. They were more like temple grounds. This is where we [had] a lot of our recreation. They had tennis courts there and they would be open until about ten o’clock at night because it was light in the summer until midnight. 01:07:00Then they had bowling greens where the men bowled on grass. Football is the big game there, but it is not like the football here. It is football with your feet. It moves. At the end, in the summer, [they play] cricket. I was more interested in music.

In our town during the war we had a lot of opportunities to see operas and 01:08:00ballet because we had a theater in the town. They would bring [those] kinds of [performances] in. People would stand in lines a long time to get to see these [events]. I mean young people were more interested in the classical [performances] than American young people at that time. I do not know what it is [like] now. Girls [who] you think would not, would be standing in line too. We would stand up and applaud every ten minutes. They would have some of these [very] exceptional stars [who] would come down, kind of [a] variety. I know there were two, they called them Ravage and Landahl who were pianists, duettists. They always played together. 01:09:00During the war mother and I used to go to what they called CEMA [The Committee for the Encouragement of Music] concerts. These [concerts would be held] on a Saturday afternoon in the library. Maybe they would have just one exceptionally good violinist and one exceptionally good singer. You did not buy tickets to [attend]. They [took up] a collection. But they were exceptionally good artists. Mother was very fond of music. Dad had had lessons, but mother had not. I think actually she appreciated it the most. She loved [music] and probably passed it on to me. I just love a violin. I cannot play it very well, but to listen to one it takes me off into another world, if it is well played. I taught my [children] some [music]. 01:10:00FH:How about prayer in your life. Has it been meaningful?

RB:Yes. Maybe I have not had any exceptional experiences like some have — healings or anything like that. I have always prayed. I guess I have always felt I needed something to lean on.

FH:How did you meet your husband?

RB:I met him up [in ] at school.

FH:Was he going to the same school you were?

RB:Yes. We met [at] a dance.

FH:Did it take very long for you —.

RB:No. It was not very long before I think we decided. It was awhile before we [were] married because we waited for mother to come. I had to make up my mind 01:11:00a little bit, too.

I had not really gone out [with men]. For one reason, I had a good time over there, but I was not interested in those [who] were not in the church. I just was not. I was determined I was going to marry a man in the church. There was the branch president who was a married man. We [were] interested in missionaries and there were good missionaries. And then I was tall. Being tall and English men short — I was not going to marry a man shorter than I. They used to tease me about it. He nearly missed the mark. He is about the same height as I. [Laughter] In fact, most of the men up at college were taller, about six foot four or something like that.

I think I have an exceptionally good 01:12:00husband. The church means a lot to him and we have the same kind of life. He enjoys the same music as I do. He has not had [music] lessons too much, but he has a good voice. We like to sing together, yet we do not spend too long at it.

FH:Where were you married?

RB:In the St. George [].

FH:Did you come and meet his people before you were married?

RB:Yes, the year before I came down to Bunkerville. I thought they were wonderful. I still do.

FH:Did you feel like this was really what you wanted?

RB:I still think a lot of his family. They could not be better. They accepted me. I do not know whether they liked me. [Laughter] They have been [very] good to me. He is from a big family and 01:13:00I had not had any brothers. This seemed good to me to get some brothers. We married and he finished his [education] up there and our first child was born in .

FH:Tell about [your] children.

RB:In the early morning Clive [Bunker] was born. That night they did not need any street lights in ’s smile was so big. [Laughter] We had called [the baby] Margaret. Mother has three girls and my sister had had a girl. My other sister [was] not married then. I just felt sure that I would have a girl, but it was a boy and that is what we really wanted anyway.

FH:[Did] he about pop his buttons off?

RB:He did. We had had the name picked out. We were definite about the name. We liked the name, Clive, 01:14:00but we did call him after my dad’s second name, Arthur. Even though we thought a lot [of] ’s father [Hector Bunker] we did not like his name, Hector, and neither did he. I know he did not like it and he did have a son named after him. So we decided on this and [my] dad did not have anybody named after him. He wrote back and said, “What did you have to call him after me for?” I know he was tickled anyway.

We really doted on this boy. We did not have any more [children] for four years — not for want. We just did not. I suppose he did get a little spoiled. This boy we knew was a little different when he was young because he did not talk until he was about four [years old]. When he was two [years old] he was playing the piano. People 01:15:00would come in and say, “That is not normal for a [boy] to sit at the piano like that.” I said, “I do not know because I [do not] have any [other children].” I had not been around too many. I had taught in school, but I would not know how they were. Then one day I said to , “It sounds like he is playing My Country ‘Tis of Thee.” And he was. He had just turned two [years old]. From that time on, he would sit at that piano and would play [all these songs]. He usually played the melody in the bass, [with] the left hand, and put chords in [with] the right. This was why we [bought] a tape recorder so we could get him [on tape]. We did not get it until two or three years after. When he was about four [years old], he did start to talk, but he is still rather quiet.

He is tall, skinny and can eat like a horse, 01:16:00but he still stays skinny. The doctor says he will not [stay that way] always. [Laughter] We really enjoyed him in the home. He is still quiet. I guess he has not perfect pitch in his ear, but it is pretty close. I can play any chord on the piano and he can be over there and tell me what it is. Now [children] at school did that in . I [don’t] have a very good ear. He gets it from the Bunkers. [Children] did that kind of thing in . I was amazed. I had difficulty with ear tests. I guess I have some kind of [inaudible] because I would be one to make mistakes. He can sit down and play any tune he hears, which I envy him. Now he has other 01:17:00interests at school [and] gets many helps on the telephone so he does not [have] too much [time] at the piano.

He is different in a lot of ways. I guess we ought to mention that he does like to write lists. He has always been [on] one track. When I took him to when he was two [years old], his main interest was trains. There was a little train that went along across the street through the fields. Every time that train came, he was there. He seemed to have an uncanny sense of knowing where the station was in the city. He always seemed to know which way he wanted to go, even [when] he was not talking. [Laughter] He would say ‘puffer’ for train. When he was eating his food he would put it [arrange] in little bits. It was [like] a train. 01:18:00When he was a little older he [became] interested in airplanes. That was all he could think about was airplanes. He would play [with] airplanes. When he [went] to high school it was ball games. I think he knows all the scores [the players] have ever had. He knows the entire lineup for the games in the future and I think he knows all the scores they are going to have. [Laughter] It seems like it!

FH:He has a gift.

RB:Yes, it must be something. His grades [are] not what the other [children] do. He is not too bad, but he usually goes down in one or two subjects. He still likes a lot of lists. I do not think we will ever get that out of his system. I think somewhere in his life he will find a job that requires this kind of [a] brain. He is reading and loves reading the Almanac. We gave him one for his birthday and that is 01:19:00his idea of a good, interesting, reading book. He does not like stories. We are [very] proud of him. He hardly ever misses a meeting at church and is very willing. His dad only has to say, “Come on. Do you want to go down to the field?” and he is right with him.

So we were [very] happy and thinking we were not going to have any more [children]. Then we moved down to []. Kent was doing civil service work there in the [] Post Office. He did not teach mainly due to the Korean War [Conflict]. He expected to go there and they did not call him. I do not think he would have been very happy teaching, though.

Then we had our next child, 01:20:00named Kent [Bunker]. Kent wanted his name in there, but he did not want us to call him Kent. We do not [want] two around. We always like a name to sound good, the whole name. With [as] the second name, it was a little difficult to get one to sound good first. So we decided on partly because the first missionary I ever met was [named] . I met one or two Lowells whom I thought were rather nice men. We nearly lost this child. I was in the hospital about four times before I had him. But I can say he was meant to be because he has really blessed our home. [ ] was a very happy baby. Clive was a very contented baby too, but was more 01:21:00of a rip. [Laughter] He was into more things, but he was always happy. His eyes were so shining. He differed from Clive. We could see they were not going to be alike. He talked very early. [When he was] two [years old] he knew the alphabet. Some of the family was a little amazed and they would take it with a pinch of salt when we said he knew [the alphabet]. The brother-in-law had a candy bar one day and said, “Come on, . See if you know all these letters on here,” and he did. He could take a map and name most of the states on the map. He could take a blank map with no names on and he could name most of those. We did not teach him. It was Clive [who] taught him. Clive thought that , [being] his little brother, should be able to do all these things. He was learning 01:22:00these things so should. [Laughter] He was very mature for his age. When he was three [years old] we [had] a little girl. She was all we wanted, a little black-haired girl. The boys felt they ought to have a sister. When we went to have her at the hospital, I went out to [] to have her [and] Clive said that it was going to be a girl. He had to have a sister. That was all there was to it. You could not tell Clive that it might be another boy. When the nurse said, “You got what you wanted,” we thought Margaret was wonderful. 01:23:00We could see a difference. She would cry if her dad came in from work and did not speak to her and just walked by, she was in tears. She was a [very] pretty baby.

When she was a year [old] and was three [years old], we [received] word to say [my] mother was very ill. Whether it had anything to do with her former illness, I do not know, but it was cancer. Only my sister [Marjorie] and I knew this. She did not tell anybody else. She did not even tell my dad. I guess the doctor told her. She wanted me to [come] over. Mother had a wish to see Margaret. We [named] Margaret after mother, Margaret Ann. She wanted to see her other grandchildren and wanted to see me because mother did not know [if] this was going to be a last visit. She had saved up to come out here 01:24:00 again.

She liked it so well, but when she could not, then the next best thing was for me to go back there.

This time I flew [over], it was before the jets. They were [flying] jet planes small distances, but they did not have them [fly] across the [ocean]. I took the three children. Besides, I do not think I could have managed to have them on the train. Margaret was crawling and into everything. Lowell was very mature at that age. He could carry on a conversation with an adult quite well. He was like a little man [and] helped with luggage. Thinking back how much more mature he was then. All the children were. 01:25:00We landed in . I had a lot of mixed feelings [on] this trip because I knew mother was ill and knew she would not get better. Yet I did not know whether to be there at the end or not. Fortunately, it was only five weeks after I [arrived] there when she went [died]. I say fortunately, because she was in so much pain and had been bedridden for two years and [in] pain all the time.

FH:It was a blessing for her to be able to go.

RB:It was a blessing. I did not ever think I could be happy when mother died. Somebody in [Las] Vegas had told me she felt happy when her mother died. I did not believe [that]. But I did, when my mother died, just for her. I prayed and I know it was wrong at the time, but I prayed that if she could not get better 01:26:00that He would not [have] her too long to suffer. It was not the right thing to do, I guess, but I did not realize it at the time.

FH:I think this was alright.

RB:I know that time was the one time that my prayer [was answered]. Sometimes we just say words, but I know I really prayed then. After mother went, I stayed on for a few weeks and visited around a little bit. I did go back to the place I had been evacuated to. The [people] were not all there, but some of them were there that I knew.

When I came back to we moved to Bunkerville. 01:27:00I think Bunkerville has always been my home in . I have always felt more at home here than anywhere else. I think I do know [it is] partly because it is the people. I have always enjoyed the ward here more than , although I met some marvelous people in . But I mean, on the whole, they were more lukewarm. They [did] not have as much drive as a majority like they do here — push in the church. I think the people here are [very] exceptional. To me they are. I know there are some people [who] have not liked it in Bunkerville. Maybe if we did not have family 01:28:00here it would make a difference, too.

The children are happy here and they have room to move. I know all their cousins like to come from [Las] Vegas and stay here. In fact, we had two of them at Easter. They think it is wonderful here. Our [children] did too. When Clive was little and we lived in [Las] Vegas, he connected Bunkerville with heaven somewhere in his mind. He thought this was akin to heaven — Bunkerville. Grandpa was here then. We had a wonderful grandpa. I think for patience with grandchildren, he had it. Some of the other Bunkers had gone on in the world. Do you know Berkeley Bunker and 01:29:00Bryan Bunker? They were nephews of grandpa and they would come talk to him and ask his advice. Sometimes he would give advice when they did not ask for it. I think he was a bit partial to my [children] too.

FH:[Because] they were here and close by?

RB:Yes, and they were young, too. The other grandchildren in Bunkerville had grown up at that time. There are some younger ones now, but at that time ours were the youngest and the others [had] grown up. On Sunday our children would always go grab him and fight about who was going to hold his hand and bring him down from church.

We had another little girl, Glenda Gay [Bunker]. We thought [the baby] was going to be a boy, but she turned out to be another redhead. That was three 01:30:00redheaded children we had.

FH:Did the red hair come from your family?

RB:Mine used to be kind of reddish. She was a little harder to raise [because] she had an illness when she was a baby. We wondered at the time about it. Then one day my brother-in-law [Fielding Hardyardy] — he is quite a spiritual man — said to his wife [Ardyce (Bunker) Hardy], “Tell them not to worry about that girl. Something is going to happen.” Grandpa [had] died at the time. I know grandpa could have helped a lot with her. I really wondered just what could come [about]. Then we heard of [a] doctor in [City] 01:31:00who had had great success with this type of child. We prayed and fasted about this. We felt it was the thing to do and took her up there. He said, “It is going to take an operation.” It would cost so much. Actually, it was very cheap for an operation. It was $200.00 or $300.00 compared with probably $1,000.00. We thought that is what we have taken her up for.

The doctors in [Las] Vegas did not seem to be able to help her at all. They said they could not. I know that night I could not get to sleep. I was in a different bed for one thing. We stayed with ’s cousin. 01:32:00I know it came to me — it was not a voice, but it was almost as clear as a voice — this was the thing to do. This was the thing you [have] to do. It has to be done.

FH:That is the whispering of the spirit.

RB:So we had her operated on. My sister [Kathleen], who was staying with us, had come from with her little girl, Beverly, whom we really had grown to love. I think she is an exceptional little girl, too. She said she could see a difference just in the few weeks she was here after this operation. Glenda is doing very well in school now. She is in second grade with her own age group. She has a ‘B+’ average which is pretty good.

The middle two 01:33:00are ‘A’ students. They have [received] straight ‘A’s’ most of their time [in] school. They have had one or two ‘B’s’ here and there. Lowell is still quite mature for his age. I do not think any of the children have given the teachers any trouble discipline-wise, for which I am thankful. Sometimes they are a little ornery at home, but this is the way I like it. I guess this maybe is the English in me. I know they have to have time when they are out of sorts. I think the home is the place for it. Even Clive is very even-tempered. I do not think Clive would ever hit a child back. We tried to get him to when he was little 01:34:00because sometimes they would take advantage of him. But that is one thing about it, in Bunkerville the [children] have been [very] good with him. [END OF RECORDING THREE.] RB:If they tease him a little bit he just laughs with them. He is tall and a little bit awkward, but he is very good-humored. They will get him to play the piano. If they need a tune they do not have the music for, they will get him to play it. He seems to get along well with the [children]. He does not want to carouse around with them, though he enjoys going to social gatherings and any ballgame. In fact, that is the only thing he ever watches on TV [television] is ballgames. The middle two [children] are TV fiends. My daughter, Margaret, who is now ten [years old], says the TV is to 01:35:00her like food is to me. [Laughter] [Inaudible] FH:Can she study unless it is going?

RB:I make her study. We ration the TV. We have to with her or she would be stuck with it. She is a reader. Lowell reads and is interested in everything, whereas Clive is one track, as I said before. There is nothing is not interested in. There are so many of the [Boy Scouts of America] merit badges that he wants to get. It is just a case of rationing his time out to get them. I think the Lord sent us him, especially when Glenda was a baby, because he could often manage her better than 01:36:00I could, even though he was young.

Margaret is a bit like my mother in that way. She did not have patience. Margaret is our little social butterfly. I think she is a pretty little girl. I do not think they will be conceited because I knock it out of them too much. The three older ones are learning [to play] the piano. They do not put a lot of time in, but I would rather them put in a shorter [practice] time and keep at it longer, a number of years, so that it will be part of them. They have a lot of other interests, too. The boys can really make those trombones sound good. I really do not like a trombone too much. They have a good music teacher at school. 01:37:00They had one or two [teachers] change, but now this one has been there the whole year. It has made a difference. He has really taken an interest in them. He has more time because he is a bachelor and can give more time to his school work.

Last summer a lot of the [children] were gone. They sent word [that] they were going to have a preliminary band. I thought we might as well get a good start on it. We were not gone then. Margaret has been playing the French horn, but it is a little bit cumbersome. She can do pretty well on it. She has a good ear like Clive. The only thing is, she does not like to read the notes. Lowell is always the one [who] 01:38:00can make his mother feel good when she is down in the dumps. He puts his arm around her and tells her what a good meal it was. He very seldom gets up from the table without saying that.

FH:That is a wonderful trait in a person.

RB: has a brother [Owen Bunker] [who is] a little bit like that. You could never get mad at ’s younger brother because he always puts his arm around you and tells you how good that chocolate cake was. [Laughter] Kent is quieter. I guess they are all good people. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] RB:When you come to another country you always have to make changes. Mother had told me — when in do as does. I do not exactly agree with that altogether, but 01:39:00I know what she meant. She would try and get along here with things as long as they were good. I have thought [that] English people and American people are rather different — especially in one way. American people always try to make you think how poor they are. British people always like to make you think they are rich, but they are very class conscious over there. You have that here in , too, but do it in a nicer way. I could see that easily when I first came when I was at college.

The girls were so friendly. It is easy to make friends here. However, I do not know that 01:40:00they keep them so long. I met some [very] nice girls at the college. I have lost touch with them. There are two girls, but they were ones [who] lived in . We still write. One of them is coming this weekend. Some of my girlfriends in I have had for years. It may be just me because our dad was a bit of one for making new friends and dropping the others for no reason. He could not keep up with them all. Mother was more for having a few [friends]. They were real friends and she had had them all her life.

We do things a lot the same, though. England is not so different from as [are] some of these other foreign countries. 01:41:00We get breakfast, go to work, go to school and eat dinner. I like [the] food here a lot better. It is not fair in a way because of the events during the war. I did not bake a cake until I was twenty-one [years old]. Unfortunately, I have not done any sewing. My sister, [Marjorie], was so good [that] I guess that was why I did not do any. She teaches sewing. She is exceptionally good at it. On the food, though, I should talk about food. It is my best hobby. [Laughter] I have to watch it, too!

FH:Do you like to [cook] nice [dishes]?

RB:No, I am not a cook. I do not like spending too long in the kitchen, but I enjoy eating 01:42:00as my [children] know. [Laughter] What I mean is I like the type of food you have here. I like salads and casseroles which we never had there. It was more meat, gravy [and] potato. We always had potatoes every day. Every Sunday we had Yorkshire pudding. Did you ever have Yorkshire pudding?

FH:I have tasted it.

RB:I do not care for it too much. I do not make it very often. I can make it. You have more variety here, but like I say, we had a war [going on]. We did not have fresh fruit either. When mother came, I could hardly drag her past the meat counter in the store. I did not think too much of it then. I was young and was not married. I guess I would get impatient, but now I could understand it. 01:43:00Because I can remember the little skimpy bit of meat we had during the war, no choice at all.

When we [moved] down to Bunkerville, we brought her down here. The peaches were [producing]. Delilah [Bunker] had them by the bushel. [In ] mother [only] bought one peach [each] year. She [Delilah] brought her a little fresh peach. We [lived] in the north [in ] [and peaches] would not grow. As a girl, [mother] down in [and] they grew a little more fruit [there]. When she saw those peaches she said, “I am sure being a pig. I have had two peaches.” [Inaudible] She really liked popcorn and popsicles, too. We kidded her about that. 01:44:00It is easier to get to know people as you are traveling. I remember when I took Clive back to we traveled on the train. He was a good little traveler. [I don’t know] how he could be so good, but he was. By the time we [came] back to , we felt like we knew some of those people on the train. When I [arrived] in , we docked in . My sister [Kathleen] met us in . Then we [boarded] the train and went up north. There we sat and the people opposite [of us] sat. Here I had a little boy. Usually, a little child 01:45:00will open up the conversation, but there they sat [like] stuffed shirt Englishmen .

FH:They live in a little world of their own.

RB:They were very nice people once you got to know them. It was not until we [were] more than halfway up the country around Catterick that a girl got on. She was in the [military] forces. She struck up a conversation — especially with Clive. I thought we have gone all that way and these people had sat. I had him to talk to, but they just sat instead. Good people.

FH:Do they kind of guard their privacy?

RB:Yes. I am still a little bit that way. That is why I like living here because our backyard is not quite as 01:46:00open as the rest. I always pull my blinds at night. I suppose I am English in a lot of things I do. There are words that I still use like clothes peg instead of clothes pin. I still come up with peg often. This is a flex instead of a cord.

FH:What about milk bottles?

RB:We do not use milk bottles. We use cans. [We say] a paper bag instead of a paper sack and biscuits are cookies. The story of Pygmalion 01:47:00is not so farfetched as you [would] think sometimes. He could tell the difference from one street to the other in . I would not go as far as that, but I know that the next branch in the church of ours was only five and a half miles away and they talked different from us. It would not be so true now. People have moved [around] more since the war. It has made a lot of difference.

FH:Do you feel the people in Bunkerville are all friendly?

RB:We do not visit a lot.

FH:Are you comfortable with them, though?

RB:Yes. My neighbor next door is a good neighbor, but we do not visit a lot. We see each other at church, but she is busy with her family and I am busy with mine. If we need each other, if I was sick, she [would be] the first one 01:48:00over here to help.

FH:Do you feel you have learned lessons from life?

RB:I think we all do. I think I have a little more patience now than I used to. I hope so. I am not quite as rash in the things I do. I think some of the deepest lessons I have learned have been through [the] Relief Society. You do not learn things just by hearing them once. My dad was one who thought that we [should] go to church and he used to go to our church. He did join the church later on in life. He thought we talked too much about one thing. 01:49:00He would hear the same thing. He would hear the story of Joseph Smith a lot of times. We have to hear it a lot of times because it does not stay with us if we do not. [I learned] one or two of the things [about the] Relief Society. One lesson was on budgeting your time. You spend your time and put it to the best use. I thought a lot more about that since I had that lesson.

FH:Have you learned how to get along with people?

RB:I am a little outspoken. I am Primary president 01:50:00and it is not a [position] I would have chosen. In fact, I mumbled about it a lot at first. Now I have learned you have to have patience with those you are working with. I used to blow up, not to them always, but I found it was not any good. I mean I think you get teachers [who] are working that do not seem to take it as seriously as they ought to and just do not get there. You are stuck with a class to teach at the last minute and it used to make me aggravated. It still does to a degree, but I do not get as mad now. I feel a little pity because they have not as strong a testimony. 01:51:00FH:Have you learned to have a lot of patience with people through this?

RB:Some people probably think I do not have patience now. But if they knew me years ago, they would know I do. [Laughter] I do not enjoy teaching now as I used to.

FH:Have you done some substitute teaching and taught some piano lessons since you have been here?

RB:Yes. I enjoy teaching piano [lessons] because I do not have too many [students]. There again, I did not think that I was marvelous or anything, but I know this [music]. I wrote to my teacher and told him that I know I never [was] as unprepared as some of the [children who] come to me. Mother never had to push me, though. She said she never had to push me to practice.

FH:There is a difference in children.

RB:If they have a talent, that is what makes me feel bad if they do not use it. Some have. 01:52:00I have done a little substitute teaching. but I do not enjoy it. You never know if they will call you at seven o’clock in the morning and I would have any grade from sixth [grade] to kindergarten to teach. I think I enjoy being a housewife.

FH:Is this your natural calling?

RB:I know I am not as good as my mother was, but I enjoy it.

FH:What would you counsel your children and grandchildren?

RB:I would probably pass on a little advice that mother gave us that we should never pass up opportunities. If you are given opportunities, use them, especially in the 01:53:00church. Mother always told us we should never say no. Sometimes there might be a time when we have to, but I think on the whole I have not. I am dependable. That is one thing I appreciate. I am not bragging when I say that, but I know I am. If I take a job I will be there. I might not put as much work into it as I could and I will be better, but I know I will be there. It would have to be something [very] serious that I would not be there.

FH:Do you feel this is what they should do?

RB:Yes. I think the children are pretty dependable. We have home evenings all the time partly because 01:54:00it is what the church advocates, but I really believe in it. I do not think they are going to change overnight. We still have [children] that squabble some, but I can see a difference overall. They do get along better together. Our youngest one can still be a little bit of a handful, but she is still young. When I think of me at that age, I bet I was a big handful.

FH:Do you have a testimony of the gospel?

RB:Yes. I believe we all do have one to a degree or we would not do all that we do. I know mine is a lot stronger these last few years. 01:55:00I know to get a testimony is to work in the church. Some people will argue that you can spend too long in the church and you neglect your family. That may be true, but on the whole I think that those people who are active in the church probably their children will be better cared for than most of the inactives around here. The children who have grown up better are those from families who are active in the church.

FH:It is better to do as I do than do as I say.

RB:I know that. We pray that our [children] will do better than we have done. 01:56:00I know that you can tell them and tell them and they will still make mistakes.

FH:We have to allow them that privilege.

RB:I never remember going out as a family on an outing at home. That was partly because we were divided. When the war came, my sister [Kathleen] was gone and I was gone. But then we just did not. Maybe they did when we were younger, [but] I do not remember. With dad not being in the church and mother being in it made a lot of difference. We do and I think that makes a lot of difference for our children.

I do know the gospel is true. I never thought watching TV you would ever feel it, but 01:57:00we do. I know as I am watching conference, I know they are men of God. We get this from the Holy Ghost, but I mean you have to look at the practical side and look at the overall pattern of the church. There is not anything like it in the world. A lot of people do not know about it and what a great thing it is.

I guess one of the greatest moments of my life was when I first saw the . I do not think anybody can know what a thrill it is when you have seen temples. [It is] just an every-day thing to most of the people here. When they have talked about it a lot of years, but you have never seen it and then to see it and to be there, 01:58:00that was really something. I remember during the war they told us that we could hear on the radio on a Sunday morning. They could get the tabernacle organ on a certain wave length. Sunday after Sunday I got up at seven o’clock in the morning. That was early. It is late here now. I tried to get that [program]. Everybody else was in bed. One morning I [heard] it. I ran through the house. [Laughter] It was as plain as could be. I guess we [received] it through , probably through the [military] forces there. It was a marvelous thing to us to hear. [It] was the first time we had ever heard the tabernacle organ in [City]. 01:59:00I have been here twenty years, but I do remember the lights in the streets when I first came here. We had a blackout and things were still dingy. I cannot get the feeling now because I am so used to the lights. But going [to] the town and seeing all those things lit up, I could not take my eyes off it. I have learned to do things I thought I could never do. I have learned to sew on my own pretty much. I have learned to make do, 02:00:00especially now. We are planning this trip to go back to this summer.

FH:Are you taking your whole family?

RB:Yes, we are going as a family because this will probably be the last chance we will get because Clive is nearly through high school. Once they are through high school [it] seems like they go on [LDS] missions, [go to] college or get married. So we decided that this would have to be the year.

FH:I think it is wonderful you are going to take that trip.

RB:Some people think we are crazy. We thought we were crazy at times, [too], on our income because we are just ordinary people. We are going without a lot of things that other people maybe think are important. Those things do not mean much to us anyway. Maybe I am different in that way. 02:01:00I do not think we will regret it. We will have six weeks there. The main thing I worry about is the weather because it can be damp and cold all the time — if it wants to be. Last summer was kind of bad, so maybe this next summer will not be so bad. We will land in . I think one of my sisters will meet us there, the one [who] lives in : Kathleen and her husband, Gordon [Haines]. We are hoping they will be there. When they came here three years ago, my oldest daughter and just hit it right off. Beverly is very quiet and Margaret is very talkative. I thought would want to sleep with her mother 02:02:00because she is an only child and she did not want to have anything to do with her mother. [Laughter] So we had to [let] Margaret and Beverly sleep together. They were friends all the time they were here.

I have to tell this little humorous incident. Around here we have a lot of skunks. This summer my sister [Kathleen] wanted to see a skunk. Do you think we could find one? We could smell them once in awhile [when] I would go walk with her at night. The last night before they left, about eleven o’clock we walked all around Bunkerville to try and see a skunk. We did not. The next night we left and took them over to []. They went by bus. They wanted to see the country as they went. 02:03:00We put them on the bus and when we came back here was a skunk right outside of the gate. My sister-in-law [Delilah] brought us some melons and we had not time to bring them in the house. We just put them in the car. I guess that is what had brought the skunk, but we really learned to love them.

The two things that my little niece, Beverly, was excited about doing when she came to was to see Sears [& Roebuck Company] because I had sent her a catalog to look through, and to go barefoot. She thought that would be a real thrill to go barefoot. [Laughter] I have never seen hair like [hers] before. It is down below her waist and it is [very] thick and black. She had it in braids most of the time, but she let it out sometimes to show it off and to go to church. They could hardly get over [her] hair. 02:04:00FH:Are you looking forward to a wonderful summer trip?

RB:We are praying nothing will go haywire. [END OF RECORDING FOUR. END OF INTERVIEW.]