Interview with Harmon Gubler, Jr.

Harmon Gubler, Jr. was interviewed on February 18, 1969 in Ivins, Washington County, Utah by Fielding H. Harris, a representative of the Voices of Remembrance Foundation. He related his personal history of living in various parts of Utah and Nevada.

FH:Would you please state your full name?

HG:My name is Harmon Gubler, Jr.

FH:When were you born?

HG:I was born on September 24, 1880.

FH:Where were you born?

HG:I was born in Santa Clara [Washington County] Utah.

FH:[What] was your father's name?

HG:My father's name was Herman Gubler, [Sr.].

FH:What was your mother's maiden name?

HG:Her maiden name was Gubler.

FH:What was her first name?

HG:Selina, S-E-L-I-N-A.

FH:[Was] her maiden name and [married] name [both] Gubler?

HG:Yes.

FH:Can you [remember anything] from your early childhood?

HG:I do not remember much about my early childhood, except after I started to school. I can tell you about that [period of my life]. I was a small boy, maybe five or six years old, [or] maybe four [years old]. One day my father went to 00:02:00St. George [Washington County, Utah]. I think he took over a load of wood. When he came back he had six new calves. They were beautiful calves. [This was] seventy or eighty years ago.

HG:-- today. He had them on his wagon and I saw him unload them. I thought those were beautiful calves.

FH: What do you remember about school?

HG:I do not [remember] much about my early [education]. I do remember my teacher 00:03:00was a woman about the fourth year in school. One day we were [doing] the school work and I do not know what I did. I was a little mischievous. I did something and my teacher told me to stop it. I think I was whistling to one of my boyfriends. She told me to stop it. I did not stop when she wanted me to and she said, "Young man, I want you to do what I tell you to do. I am going to take you to your mother and tell her that you are not behaving very [well] in school."

I lived right behind the schoolhouse. She was nice. She was not cross. She 00:04:00talked to me going home. When we [went] over there, mother was in the house. She told my mother that her son was a naughty [boy] that day and told my mother what I had been doing. She was nice in telling it. I admired her for it. Mother told me I should not cause any disturbance in school and she did not want me to do that anymore. We did not stay long. We went back to school and I always admired her for going there. I did not have anything against her. I did not think I was very bad, though, in the first place, but she thought I was. [Laughter] We got 00:05:00along better after that. My wife was a teacher and she was a good teacher.

FH:Were there any other experiences in school you would like to tell about?

HG:I do not know much [more].

FH:Did you have one teacher who kept hitting you on the side of the head with a book?

HG:Yes, I had a teacher who hit me aside the head with a book. That happened quite often. The reason was that I think this was our second or third teacher in school. We had a nice teacher the year before. He was a man teacher and we liked him. I liked him [and] got along fine with him. One day [the] teacher [who] had 00:06:00been in school a year or two before that came to visit the school. While he was in there, one of my boy friends, a classmate, wrote something on his slate and took it up to this teacher who [had] come to visit the school. This teacher made a fuss over it and told him how well he could write. [He] told him he was doing fine in school, [that] he wanted him to keep on studying and make a good man out of himself.

After I heard all that, I decided I better go up and show my former teacher how good I could write. Before I got there, my present teacher told me to go sit down and hit me aside the head with a book. [Laughter] Of course I sat down, but 00:07:00I did not like it.

After this, practically every few days, he would hit me aside the head with a book. I got tired. I went home that evening and told my father that my teacher 00:08:00was hitting me on the head with a book all the time. "What did he hit you on the head for?," father said. I said, "I do not know." I told him about my boyfriend showing his writing to his former teacher and the fuss the teacher made about it [inaudible]. [He had] praised the boy for what he was doing. So I went up and wanted a little praise too. Instead of getting any praise I [was] hit on the head with a book and was told to go sit down and take my seat. I went and sat down, but I did not like it and [was] hit on the head several times after that.

My father often reminded me to be a good boy in school. He told me that if the teacher had to give me a licking, he would give me a licking too if he thought I needed it when I [came] home. He never did give me a licking for anything the teacher did against me. I know that my father talked to the teacher and told him he did not want me hit on the head with a book anymore. After that, I was not hit on the head and we got along [fairly] good.

FH:How much [education] were you able to [receive]?

HG:I [had] two years of college [studies].

FH:[Where] did you go to school?

HG:I went to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah] to [BAC] the Branch [Agricultural College]. That is where I took four years of high school [studies].

FH:Where did you [go to] college?

HG:I went to college at BYU [Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah County, Utah].

FH:Did you enjoy school?

HG:I liked school very much, but I would have liked it much better and enjoyed it [more] if I had had better eyes. My eyes failed me and I could not study like I should have. I was handicapped very much.

FH: Were there some teachers you feel you would like to mention by name that you liked?

HG:[There was a] lady teacher [who] I think was about my second or third 00:10:00teacher. I liked her for a teacher. She was a good teacher and I liked some of my elementary teachers. I liked all of them, except I did not think they knew much about English.

I could not learn grammar. I did not want to learn grammar. They did not make it interesting to me. I thought that I was getting along fairly [well]. In order to get into high school and to go to college, I had to take examinations. I took all the examinations. I took about twelve or fourteen subjects to get into high school and some of them I had never had. The examinations were over about ten to 00:11:00twelve subjects. When I [received] my credits and found out how I made it, one of the teachers [who] took care of the work told me he thought I had better take grammar, take correct English [course]. In other words, take my grammar over again. I did not like this. I told him I had been going to school a week and said I had done well, I thought, in my English scores. I told him I thought I had gotten along. He said, "You passed, but you did not pass with a very good mark. I think you would be ahead if you took preparatory English." I told him I 00:12:00did not [want] to do that. Then he told me I needed to take three years [of] English to get through high school. When he told me that, I told him I would take preparatory English.

I was very glad that I took it. I took it [from] a Mr. Anderson. He was a teacher in high school there. He taught music and preparatory grammar. I do not know if he taught anything else, but he taught those two subjects. He was a good teacher. He was the best English teacher I ever had. I enjoyed his [teaching] very much. I did not have to study my grammar. I did not have to study very much. I studied some. But if I had had to take English, I would have had a lot 00:13:00more bookwork to do. I do not know whether my eyes would have held up the first year or not. I was very glad that I took this preparatory English. I think it helped me. I got along with a lot of the English teachers after that, but I did not know much about grammar and did not want to learn much.

FH: In your early years, did you have anything happen to you that you considered to be an adventure-type experience?

HG: I did most anything that anybody else ever did. I rode horse races, ran foot races, wrestled and put on my boxing gloves. I was always [available] if there 00:14:00was anything going on [in] the way of sports. I never missed. My father always let us boys go if there was anything going [on], but when he wanted us to work, he wanted us to work. If there was anything going to entertain us during the holidays or any other time, for that matter, he was always willing to let us go.

FH: [Did] he cooperate?

HG:He cooperated with us very well in that respect.

FH:Did you take any trips in your early years that you would like to tell about?

HG:I took one trip. My main trip was back to Europe on my [LDS] mission. After I [came] back from the mission field, I started school. My eyes quit me and I had 00:15:00to quit so I went out selling woolen goods. I am getting ahead of my time now.

After I quit high school I went to the University of Utah [U of U in Salt Lake City, Salt Lake County, Utah] summer school one year. Then I took the teacher examination there and was given a grammar [elementary] grade [teaching] certificate. While I was still in summer school, a man came to see me from one of the smaller towns in southern Idaho. I have forgotten [his name and] the name [of the town]. He wanted me to go and teach school for him. He wanted to [give me] a principal-ship in one of the smaller towns in Idaho. I signed up with him, but before I [finished talking] with him, I told him I was having eye trouble. I was going to an eye doctor and, unless I [received] help, I might have to cancel 00:16:00my contract. He said he was sorry to hear that and was glad I had told him. He said, "If you have to quit, let me know at least thirty days before school commences." I told him I would let him know early. I let it go about three weeks and then I wrote and told him I was not coming. He wrote me a nice letter and thanked me for telling him. He said he was sorry I could not come. .

After that, I went to my brother [John G.]. He is two years younger than I. He was in college at that time. He was [also] going to the University of Utah. That 00:17:00is why I went to see him. I told him I did not know what I was going to do. I had just [returned] from a mission. He said, "Why not go out and sell books?" He said, "There is a man here who wants someone to go out and sell books. He wants to get men out selling books." The book was a wonderful book called Iowa Home.

I thought this over and met this man. [I] decided to go out and sell books and started up at Hinckley [Millard County, Utah]. It is in the middle part of the state. I went from there over to Holden [Millard County, Utah]. Then I went to a 00:18:00town, Scipio [Millard County, Utah], north of Holden, [to] sell books. That was my first experience. I did not sell too many books. It is hard work, but I sold a few books. After I [came] to Scipio, I decided to go south. I went south as far as Beaver [Beaver County, Utah] and Cedar [City]. I quit selling when I [came] to Cedar [City]. I was out selling books [for] about three months.

After I [quit] selling books, school was ready to start in Cedar [City]. I started high school, at the Branch [Agricultural] College [BAC]. I stayed there until about December. I was having eye trouble so I went home early. I quit 00:19:00about two weeks before school closed [at] the middle of the year. I went home and decided not to go back to school because of my eyes. My eyes did not improve during the holidays so I stopped.

FH:Was the problem with your eyes a tremendous handicap in your [education]? Did you learn to be a farmer from your father?

HG:Yes, I learned to be a farmer from my father.

FH:Did you like farming?

HG:I didn't like it too well.

FH:But, under [the] circumstances, it was probably a good thing that you could be a farmer.

HG:That was about all I could see to do. After I [came] back from school that 00:20:00summer, I worked at Farley that summer, and then the next fall I -- I might be getting mixed up here.

FH:Did you go ahead and finish a couple years of college?

HG:After I went to the University of Utah for summer school, I went out selling books. After I [was] through there, I went to school until about December. Then I quit school because of my eyes [and] did not go back. I went to Nevada at that 00:21:00time. I was going to sell life insurance. I went over to my brother's [John G. Gubler] place over at ─ he was at BYU then. He was going to drive me back here. He said to me, "Why not stop and go to school?" I said, "John, you know why I do not go to school." He said, "Yes, I know why you do not go to school. You can stay with us. We have room for you to stay here. You can room and board with us. We will not charge you too much, but we will have to charge you something. I would like to see you go to school. If you stop [here], we will help you study. We will go through some of the lessons with you. You can go to school tomorrow and go to some of my classes. If you want to register for some 00:22:00of those classes, register and I will help you. We will study those lessons together." I said, "You would do that?" He said yes, he would do that. I said, "You might be sorry." He said no he would not. He said he thought we would get along better studying together than if we read the lessons over individually. I said there might be something in that.

I went to school the next day to several of his classes and a couple of them I liked. He asked me that evening what I was going to do. I said, "I do not know. It is hard for me to make up my mind. I would like to go to school and take up your offer of helping me. I think we could get along that way. I will sleep on 00:23:00it." The next morning, I told him I was going over to school. I went over and registered and we got along fine that winter.

FH:That sounds like that was a [very] good solution to your problem.

HG:[It] was a good solution. If I could have done that all the time, I would have been okay, but I did not have him with me all the time. I went to school that year with him and then went to [a] twelve-week summer school. In summer school, the teacher wanted some teachers to go out to Wyoming [to] teach [inaudible] high

school, church school. His name was Thomas L. Barton. He was a little [fellow], but he seemed to be a nice fellow [and he was] bright. I said, "What do you want 00:24:00me to teach? I have not been thinking about teaching school." [Not] enough to [amount to] anything. I said I was [studying] law. I had experiences in school. I had a tutor in law. We used to have our courts there and went through [the] regular court maneuvers. We used to have jury trials ─ all kinds of trials. That is where I was very successful in defending cases. I ran in school for prosecuting attorney there, but I [became] snowed under. The man there was Ellis [ J.] Pickett. He lives in St. George now. He was going to school and he was [studying] in law. His dad was [inaudible] lawyer. They came out and asked me if 00:25:00I wanted to run as prosecuting attorney against Pickett. I said, "No. Pickett is [studying] law and his dad [Charles Pickett] is a lawyer. I do not know a thing about law."

I kept putting them off and putting them off. They kept coming back. A couple of boys [were] arrested [and] they were going to have separate trials. [After] one trial, they found this boy guilty. These two boys came back to me and said [the] attorney they had did not know anything. They wanted me to take the case for the other boy. I said, "Nothing doing." Then they asked me if I would help the other 00:26:00man. I said, "That is a different proposition and if you think I can help you. I will. Before I give you my word, go see that man and ask him if it is alright for Gubler to help." They came back in a few minutes and said it was okay. He said he would be glad to have my help.

The next day they held the other trial. The house was full of boys and girls [inaudible] in court. They had gone through the preliminaries. This man and myself [stood] up [to] take part in the somber occasion. They started to register and impanel a jury. [Inaudible]. He did not get up. The boys and girls 00:27:00were looking at him. They looked at me and they looked at him and they looked at me. I [was] ashamed of myself. I thought: I guess it is up to you, old man. So I [stood] up and they started to impanel the jury. The other [fellow] never opened his mouth and I did the whole works. If I ever had any headache it was that evening after [the] jury trial was over. We went through the case [and] brought in their witnesses. After the witnesses had all given their evidence [testimony], the judge told them [the jury] to go out in another room, talk things over and come back [with] the verdict.

In about thirty or forty minutes they were still out. [He] wanted to know when they [would be] ready to bring in a verdict. They said they would be in a minute 00:28:00or two. They came in and said, "Not guilty". If you ever heard anybody yelling, making a noise, you heard those boys and girls doing it. They sure made a noise.

FH:You were a hit!

HG:I made a hit! I was busy all the rest of the year filing papers on those students. I think I won all of them. I put it in my book here that I won them all. It would be a hard story to tell. [Laughter] I won most [of] those cases. In fact, I think all of them except one or two. There were quite a few of them. One of them we never did pull him off.

One day I was coming across the campus. I did not go to devotional that morning. A friend of mine met me. He said, "Gubler, you sure got hell over in school this 00:29:00morning." I said, "I got hell?" He said, "Yes." I said, "What did I do? I have not been doing anything." "Well," he said, "you got hell." I said, "What about?" He said, "The [inaudible] court. The principal [inaudible] [stood] up and made a speech and Mr. Woodbury, one of the other teachers, [stood] up and made a speech." There was one more [teacher], but I have forgotten his name. "They sure did give you [inaudible] about those courts. They were rotten." I said, "I will have to go and see about that."

I knew Mr. Dutcher. He was the principal at that time, Nordin W. Dutcher. I was well acquainted with him. I had taken classes under him and I liked him. I was not afraid to go and talk to him. I rapped at the door and he said, "Come in." 00:30:00He said, "How are you, Mr. Gubler?" I said, "I am alright." [He said], "What can I do for you?" I said, "I came over here to talk about those rotten courts." He said, "I have been sorry ever since you did that. We should have talked to you or somebody else [who] knew something about it. They had to summon judges talking about those courts and some of the other people did. They made quite a fuss about it. They [became] all riled up and brought the question up in devotional. I am sorry you did it." I said, "Do you want to know who the jurors in some of those trials were?" He said, "Yes." I said, "We will start with the first one." I gave him the names and said, "What do you think about those people 00:31:00as jurors?" He said, "If they can't act as jurors, we have not any in this school." I said, "That is [fairly] good." He said, "Yes, that is [fairly] good."

I went over the case with him and told him who [the] jurors were. That is what he said. If they can't act as jurors, we have not any boys and girls in this school [inaudible] out the door. I said, "Do you want some more names?" He said, "Yes." I gave him another set. We only had four jurors and [inaudible]. I gave him the names of four more. I said, "What do you think about those?" He said, "Those are all good people. They ought to make good jurors." I said, "Do you want some more?" He said, "Yes," and I gave him another set. He said, "They are okay. Nothing is wrong with any of those people." I said, "Do you want some more?" [He said], "No, that is enough." He thanked me for coming in [and] said he was very sorry [about what] happened. I knew what was going to happen.

The next morning I went to devotional. Nothing happened. The next morning I was there again and the third morning I was there and nothing happened. The fourth morning, after we [were] through with our general exercises and the rest of the work, the principal [stood] up and he said, "We have some unfinished business to take care of today." He started to talk about the court. He talked and told us what he thought about it. He said, as far as he could see, there was not anything wrong with those courts. When he [was] through talking, Mr. [Ellis] Pickett [stood] up and asked for the floor. Pickett got the floor and he made a 00:33:00speech. When he [was] through, I asked for the floor and I made a speech. Pickett asked for the floor the second time and he read another speech. I asked for the floor and made a second speech. Then Pickett asked for the floor again and the principal told him not to talk anymore. Pickett started to talk and the principal said, "Sit down." He kept on talking. He said, "Sit down!" The third time he kept on talking, he says, “Sit down!” And he sat down [inaudible]. I never asked for the floor anymore, I’d said all I wanted to say.

FH: [Laughter.]

HG: After that these courts were [inaudible], never had any trouble with the courts.

FH: Good.

FH: Tell us a little bit about your church experience in those years you were growing up. Were you active in the church?

HG: Well, I was active in the church. I was [inaudible] most boys are. I only went to church. I usually listened in church. And I went to primary, I went to Sunday School, and went to Mutual.

FH: Mm-hmm.

HG: I went to [inaudible] —

[END OF TAPE ONE – SIDE ONE]

FH: — tell us about him.

HG: Well, my father was a big man, he was [inaudible]. He went to school a little when he was a boy. They had a little school, but they never had very good teachers and the school didn’t amount to very much. In fact, he never got any farther than the third or fourth grade.

FH: Mm-hmm.

HG: I don’t know how he studied in school, but he was a bright man. ‘Course he never had any schooling or very little schooling. And he was a hardworking man, he always saw that his children had something to eat and clothes to wear. He was a farmer and used to peddle and go into the mining camps in the summertime with produce. He was a hardworking man. He never did loaf much. 00:36:00He had good health [and] got along fine with his children. He did not have any children in any trouble. He wanted us to go to school. In fact, he did not give me too much help in going to school, but the first year when I went to school he let me make a couple of peddling trips into Pioche and Delamar, Nevada. I went on a [fairly] good road [with] two horses. I took down about all we could put on the wagon. My father let me keep all the money I made on two peddling trips. It amounted to about $100.00. Money was worth money at that time and he gave me the $100.00 that I made on those two peddling trips. It helped me get into school and helped me to get through the first year. I worked for my board, too.

FH:Did your dad take care of things that needed to be done?

HG:Dad took care of things that needed to be done. He was a hard worker. He never did go on a [LDS] mission. They were going to send him on a mission; then they decided not to. I think they thought maybe he had too much family to take care of. He never did go [and] they released him.

FH:Can you remember his father's and mother's names?

HG:His father's name was John. His mother's name was Mary Ursulla, U-R-S-U-L-L-A. I think her maiden name was Milne, but I am not sure. [Johannes and Maria Ursula (Mueller) Gubler.]

FH:What can you tell about your mother?

HG:My mother was a good woman. She was a hard-working woman. She [went] through the grades in school. She was about five years younger than dad. She went to school after she was married, but she could not finish the grades. She always 00:38:00helped us in school at night. They tried to help us. Dad did not do much in helping us, as he was busy. Mother used to help us in school a lot. Mother was a hard worker and she would take care of things. Both mother and dad wanted us to get on in school.

FH:[Did] they encourage you?

HG:They both encouraged us in going to school.

FH:Do you know her mother's and father's names?

HG:Her father's name was Kasper Gubler and her mother's name was [Anna] Katherina (Gubler) [Gubler].

FH:How many children did [your parents] have?

HG:They had eleven children, six boys and five girls.

FH:Would you name [your brothers and sisters]?

HG:I was the first one, Harmon Gubler, Jr. They did not spell father's name like they spelled my name. His [name is spelled] H-E-R-M-A-N. Mine should have been Herman, too, but they called me Harmon. They used to call him Harmon, too. That is the name he went by, Harmon Gubler. They named me Harmon [and] that is the way my name is on the record. His name on the Swiss records is Herman.

There is John G. Gubler, Selina, S-E-L-I-N-A, [Rosina] Gubler. I think Eunice is 00:40:00the next one, Eunice Hortense [Gubler]. Then George Henry [Gubler], Jacob Martin [Gubler], Mata Gubler, Jetta Gubler, and Dora Gubler. I think that was it. No, 00:41:00then there is one [more], June [Gubler].

FH:There is one more somewhere. Was there one that died young?

HG:[Unnamed Gubler] died before he was born. She was about eight months along.

FH:He was not one of the eleven.

HG:No, he was not. There is Selina, Eunice, Mata, Jetta and Dora. Is that five girls?

FH:Yes.

HG:There is Harmon, John [G.], [George] Henry, [Jacob] Martin, and June. How many is that?

FH:[That is] five.

[TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF]

FH:Edmund [Gubler] was the other one. [That makes eleven children.] Did these 00:42:00children have good-sized families?

HG:They have all had fairly good-sized families.

FH:Are they scattered over the country?

HG:They are not scattered very much now. [George] Henry died in Ely [Nevada]. John [G.] died in Salt Lake [City]. He was teaching [high] school up there for about forty years and in other places.

FH:Are their descendants scattered all over the country?

HG:Not so [much].

FH:Are there a lot of them [living] in Dixie?

HG:Edmund [lives] in Santa Clara. [George] Henry was buried in Lund, Nevada. Edmund is still alive. June is still alive and I am still alive. Is that all of us?

FH:That accounts for them [fairly] well. What did you do to have fun when you were growing up?

HG:I used to like to run foot races. I used to like to put on the gloves [to box] and I used to like to wrestle some. I used to play ball. I never did play basketball much. I played football one game and hurt my knee.

FH:[Did] you like to play baseball?

HG:I liked baseball. I liked the track. That is what I liked mostly.

FH:Did you also enjoy horses and horse racing?

HG:Yes, I liked horses. I used to ride [in] horse races.

FH:Did they have races here locally?

HG:Yes, we had them locally. We had them in Santa Clara in a couple of places up on the hill if it was stormy.

FH:Did you go to any dances?

HG:Yes, I used to like to dance. I always went to dances.

FH:What kind of music did you have to dance to?

HG:We used to have a fiddle, an accordion and an organ. [That] is about all they used to have when we were [children]. After we [were] older, they had bands come in from other towns.

FH:[Other than] the handicap with your eyes, did you enjoy reading when you could?

HG:I like to read. We used to get out and have a little fun at holiday times. We would get out and do things sometimes we should not have done, but nothing very bad. One thing I put in my book, but I do not know whether I better put this in.

I started [to] school my first year and came home for the summer. We had some 00:46:00toilets in the public square. They were not fit for pigpens. The windows were knocked out, the doors off and part of the wall was falling down in the other one. They were a [very] dirty mess. It was a disgrace to have them in town there at all in front of the public square. School children played around there. Anyway, there were about five or six of us, a bunch, [and] we got rid of two [of the toilets].

FH:How did you do that?

HG:We went home. When we came back [laughter] we had it all fixed up. We did not want the other two around because they would give us away. That is why we got rid of them. We went up and got a bundle of straw and put that straw in the 00:47:00frame building and put some in the other so the whole thing would burn. We took a match to it. That fire [flared] right up. It was dry and it went straight up. We went home again.

I lived behind the church. I was in bed and an old man by the name of John Graff turned to my dad. I liked him. He was kind of a cute little old man. He said, "Herman, Herman! Your pigs are burning up. Your pigs are burning up." I said, "My pigs are burning up?" I was kind of slow waking up. I was awake all the 00:48:00time. I got up and said, "I will have to go see what the matter is." I went down [and looked]. I said, "Those pigs are alright." He said, "The toilets are burning up." I said, "I can see that. Who burned them up?" He said he did not know. [Laughter] He did not ask me if I knew. He knew that I knew.

FH:You got rid of them!

HG:They burned up. My uncle John [Gubler] had been out on the other side of the block. He [stood] up and hollered, "Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!" In a few minutes the men were coming in with the buckets. Most of the men were there coming to 00:49:00see the show. One [from] my bishopric, a first counselor, walked around me. I think he walked around to see if there was any straw on my back. But he did not see any. He never said anything. They were talking and laughing. They were all glad it was burned up; most of them were, anyhow.

One of them said, "Too bad to burn that lumber." One of them said, "It wasn't fit for an outhouse." He did not use that word, he used something else. That was about the only complaint we had ─ too bad to burn that lumber up. It was not any good. The next Sunday the bishop got up and made a stink about the boys burning up these toilets. He turned to my father and asked my father to furnish lumber to build toilets. My father said, "Why are you asking me to furnish lumber to build those toilets?" They said, "Your boy managed to burn them up." 00:50:00My father said, "Did you see him burning them up?" He said, "No." "Did anyone see him burning them up?" He said, "No." He said, "If you do not know that he burned the toilets up I am not going to furnish any lumber for them. I might help furnish lumber for a toilet. But I am not going to pay for those alone. I do not know whether my boy burned them up or not." He did not know it. [Laughter] He might have had an idea! We did not do any [inaudible].

In a few years they built a new [building], and put some good toilets in it. 00:51:00That was one of the worst tricks I ever did. I have never been ashamed.

FH:Maybe that was a good civic act. [Laughter]

HG:[Laughter] It was a good act.

FH:Where did you go on your [LDS] mission?

HG:I went to Switzerland. I was over there a few days short of two and a half years. When I [arrived] in the mission field Levi Edgar Young was the mission president. I [came] in there after dark. I went alone from Liverpool [England] to Zurich [Switzerland]. I got there and I found the place. When I [arrived] there, President Young said, "I do not know where I am going to send you, Brother Gubler. I have not decided where to send you. Do you want to go anyplace 00:52:00around here for two or three days? Next Sunday we are going to hold a conference in Bern [Switzerland]." The headquarters were in Zurich. He said, "If you have a place you want to go for two or three days, you are welcome to go and see what you can see." I said, "I have a cousin [John Wittwer] here on a [LDS] mission. He is here somewhere. He is supposed to be [here]. I would not mind going to see him." He said, "He is down here about forty or fifty miles. You go down and stay with him for two or three days, if you want to. Be over in Bern for conference. I will tell you where to go."

When he told me he did not know where he was going to send me, he said, "I might 00:53:00send you to Berner Oberlands." That was out in the country. He said, "How would you like to go to Berner Oberlands?" I said, "I do not know anything about Berner Oberland. All I know is they have four or five [returned] missionaries over in Santa Clara. They tell me they have a different language in every town. When I [come] back from my mission, I want to study languages and German is going to be one. I do not think I can learn German up in the Berner Oberlands." He looked at me kind of funny. I said, "I will tell you one thing. I will go anyplace you want me to go. If you want me up in the Berner Oberlands, that is 00:54:00where I am going. I told you why I did not want to go up there and that is the reason I do not want to go." He said, "It would be nice to go up there and look at those glaciers during the winter. It is nice country up there." I said, "That might get old looking at those glaciers all winter." When we [came] to Bern, he said, "I am going to send you up to Berner Oberlands." I said, "Okay, that is where I am going then."

In ten months he was released and I was still up in the Berner Oberlands. I thought I would stay there for the rest of my mission. But, in about three weeks, I was transferred to another town. I was glad to get out of [there]. There are a lot of nice people up in the Berner Oberlands but they did have a mess in their languages there.

I studied my German. Some of the older men [were] a little sarcastic and asked me why I didn't talk like they talked up there. I would tell them [that] they 00:55:00could not say much. I told them I was going to go to school. The women were nice. They did not bother me. The girls tried to help me learn German. Some of them tried to give me German lessons. They did not know German too well, but they did the best they could.

I got along in the Berner Oberlands. I made a lot of friends up there. I did not make many converts. I did not make many converts anytime when I was in the mission field. They did not do like they do now.

FH:There is quite a difference.

HG:There is a difference [between] then and now. When I was there, I preached. I preached Joseph Smith to them. I preached the restoration of The Church [of 00:56:00Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. I did all I could to help them. I [had] a lot of friends. I was in one little town there called Burgdorf [Switzerland]. My brother-in-law [John Hafen] had been there and another young fellow from Salt Lake [City]. He was a [boy] about eighteen or nineteen years old. They took them out and sent me up there. I had been there. When they told me to go up there, I told my conference president that I did not want to live [there]. I would rather 00:57:00[live where] the missionaries were living. We were living out in the sticks over a cow stable. They had the cows in the bottom and the family lived upstairs. They had a room upstairs where they held church. That is where they lived, too.

I told them I did not want to live out there. I wanted to get up in town and be around the people more and I would see more people. He said, "You can go up in town, but you [will] have to pay rent there." I knew that. He said, "That is not all. If you want to get a room in town, get a room there and hold church in town." I said, "That suits me." He said, "We will pay for the church, but you [will] have to pay for your room." I said, "That is alright. I expected to pay for it."

In that town I did not have very many people, but I increased my numbers. I had over about sixty-three percent increase [in] numbers. I was there eight months 00:58:00alone. Once in awhile a missionary would come in and maybe stay after church or something like that. I was there alone.

FH:That was quite unusual for an elder to work alone.

HG:We did a lot of that in that mission. We went to Bern again for conference and, when we [arrived] there, several of our young missionaries were not feeling too good. They were out alone. They could not counsel them. They could not talk. They were not all alone, but some of them were. They came into conference and they did not have very good reports about working alone. After that, they put 00:59:00them out two and two. Some places had more than that.

FH:Was that more successful?

HG:I was very successful in that town when I was there alone. I had other people come in. When I went to bid them good-bye, I talked to the mission president and he talked as if they were going to keep me another five or six months. In about three months a letter came [for me] to be in Liverpool on a certain date. I only had about three or four days to get to Liverpool. It took me about a day and a half to make it. I had some people I wanted to go say good-bye to.

I went to this town and the man I had stayed with in [inaudible] told me he wanted me to baptize him. His wife wanted to be baptized and his mother-in-law wanted to be baptized. I said, "I am sorry. I have a very few days to make it to 01:00:00Liverpool. If I do not get there by a certain date, I have to wait for three more weeks. After I get over to Liverpool, I cannot make arrangements to do that."

In the meantime, there was another town where I had been working. There were three sisters there and [their] mother. They wanted to be baptized. I could not. There were quite a few of them; four or five in that same town were baptized and started a church after I left. I had more success there than anyplace in the mission field and I was all alone.

FH:That is wonderful. You filled your complete mission and [received] an honorable release when you [came] home.

HG:I put all that in the book.

FH:Tell about your courtship.

HG:I had a girl [who] I went with for about three years, most of it quite steady, while I was trying to go to school. Then this mission came up and we talked it over. She was a nice girl [and] I liked her very much. But I still wanted to go to school. We put this off and decided not to get married. In the meantime, typhoid [fever] hit Santa Clara and her older sister died, her brother 01:02:00ten years younger died and then she died. She was buried the day before I left for the mission field.

FH:That was a blow to you.

HG:It was a hard blow. It took me a long time to get over it. Then I never went with a girl steady. I saw some nice girls in Switzerland. Two or three of them I liked. One of them told me she was going to go to Paris [France] to work. She had been there before. This was the girl that [inaudible]. I told her I was going through Paris. She said, "I want you to be sure [to] come and see me. I will show you around." She said she was working there for two old maids. They might not have been old maids, but they were women past fifty [years old]. She said, "I am upstairs about fifteen stories." She told me how to find it and I 01:03:00did not have any trouble finding it. She took me to see Paris. She was a nice girl and she got married. She was [inaudible] a missionary. She was going to church, too, after I left there.

[TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF]

FH:You [were talking about the girlfriend who] died. Had you planned to marry her?

HG:I planned to marry this girl. We were both willing. We could not have done it if we wanted to while I had that mission there. If we waited a month or two, two or three months, we could have done it then. We decided to get married when I [came] back from my mission. Of course, you do not know what [can] happen in two and a half years. I think she would have waited for me. I know I would have waited for her. We [were sealed] by President Cannon. [Dora Lovine Reber was his 01:04:00deceased bride.]

FH:Did you have her sealed to you after you [came] back?

HG:When I [came] back from the mission field.

FH:What was her name?

HG:Her name was Dora Lovine Reber, R-E-B-E-R. I think she spelled her middle name, L-O-V-I-N-E.

FH:Later, did you have a courtship with another girl?

HG:I used to go with a girl, maybe take a girl to a show, to a dance or to basketball games. But I never went steady with anybody. I would go with them once or twice and then forgot all about it.

[The] girl I married is eighteen years younger than I. She is very good in 01:05:00giving readings. She made up some kind of a reading. It was very good and that is what [put] my eye on her. I asked her for a date a time or two. She never did turn me down. Her mother used to give her the deuce because she thought I was too old for her. She was about twenty-two when we [were] married and I was thirty-eight. Her dad told her [mother] she was old enough to know what she was doing. If she wanted to marry him, it was alright with him and she should not be hollering about it. She kept still [and] did not cause any trouble. She didn't 01:06:00want her to marry me [because] she thought I was too old for her. We were married in the temple by proxy.

FH:When you first married, [was it] in the temple?

HG:No, we were not married there. She had typhoid [fever]. When I married this girl, we [inaudible]. We had a date set and had everything ready, so we [were] 01:07:00married. Three or four weeks after, we [were] married in the temple.

[Harmon, Jr. and Myrtle (Laub) Gubler were married March 17, 1920 in St. George, Washington County, Utah.]

FH:Where did you go to make your home after you married?

HG:We lived in Santa Clara for awhile. Then she went with me out to western Montana, [and] northern Idaho. We went into Colorado a little. No, she did not go to Colorado. She was out [with me for] six months, not quite that long, and 01:08:00she came home.

[END OF TAPE ONE -- SIDE TWO]

FH:Did you live most of your married life in Santa Clara?

HG:[We lived] in Ivins [Washington County, Utah].

FH:Did you live a few years in Santa Clara before you came here?

HG:Yes.

FH:Where were your children born?

HG:I think they were all born in Santa Clara.

FH:Tell the names of your children and something about them.

HG:My oldest child was Matha Monta Gubler. She was born in Santa Clara. She grew up and went to school there. No, she went to school in St. George after we moved to Ivins. I guess she never did go to school in Santa Clara. She went to school 01:09:00in Ivins and then she went to St. George.

We tried to get a school here in Ivins. They [the Washington County School District] promised us a school after we had ten families here. But they changed their mind and did not give us a school. We had quite a time fighting with the school board. We had two or three dissenters here in Ivins. They wanted to go to school in Santa Clara. We had a lot of students over there. During that time, I was [the] presiding elder here. We were having so much trouble with the school 01:10:00board trying to keep the families here. It was the school board mostly. [Inaudible] the school board was not too much in our favor. [Inaudible]

We started a school in Ivins [and] had a good teacher. We held our school in the little building they have over there now. Another building has moved over. It is our courthouse over there now. It is the town office building. We held our 01:11:00school there in that building next to our other building here. We helped build that new building. We called it the Relief Society building. [The] wards in the stake helped us build it. We put up about half the money and the stake put up [the other] half. We held our school there in that building. The school got so [inaudible] that the president of the stake decided we could not have that building anymore for school. So we talked it over. We did not have a very good place to hold school in a private building, so we decided to quit our school. We hated to quit but we had to.

FH:Did all the children go to [school in] Santa Clara?

HG:No. Most of them went to St. George. They told us our [children] would be at school over in St. George.

FH:Did they [the school district] take them over by bus?

HG:Yes. When they sent the other [children] over there, they said we could send 01:12:00the older [children] over there. The [children] were getting older, too. The little [children] they wanted to go to Santa Clara. We said, "What is the matter with you [people]? You tell us our children would be better off in a bigger school and here you want to send our little [children] to Santa Clara. What is the matter with you?" We told them we were going to send them to St. George. The bus driver was going to unload them down there, but the [children] would not get off the bus. Most of them said [we are to go to] St. George. Some of them stayed over in Santa Clara and some went to St. George.. We had about twelve [children]. We did not have very many.

FH:How much [education] did your first daughter get?

HG:She went through high school [and] through college. She did [the] work for her masters [degree], but she has not written her thesis. I do not know if she is ever going to write it. She started to write it once and then she changed it and it has never been finished. So I do not know if she has enough [education] 01:13:00to have a masters [degree] if she has not [done] her thesis. She is teaching in high school.

FH:Where [is she teaching school]?

HG:[She is] in Tonopah, Nevada.

FH:Is she married?

HG:She was married. That is why she has had trouble. The man was a Catholic. His parents are Catholic. He came over from Russia. He was about sixteen [years old] when he came over from Russia. [She] met him down in [Las] Vegas [Nevada]. She had to quit school on account of her health. She went down to [Las] Vegas to 01:14:00work and she met this man down there. He came up here once to see me. [My] wife was not home. He came to the house and I had lunch ready. He had his son with him. I asked them to come in to eat. So they came in and I talked to him for an hour, I guess. I did most of the talking. He never told us they were thinking about getting married. He and [his] boy went back to [Las] Vegas.

In a few days, I [received] a letter from [our] girl and she said, "What did you think of Mike [Chesney]?" I said, "I do not know what about Mike. He seems to be 01:15:00a nice fellow. He had been in the army for sixteen to eighteen years. Young fellows in the army know what they are supposed to do. I do not know what he is." She had known him [for] only about three or four months. She told me they were thinking about getting married. I said, "If you are going to get married to him, if you have your mind made up to marry him, I want you to wait at least one year. In a year's time you will know what is going on and might get a different opinion of him." She thought he was a [very] nice [fellow]. In fact, my oldest boy [Wendell Roosevelt] was working down there and his wife was there. They were married and they [were all] together quite often. They thought this was alright. 01:16:00But he [started] stepping out with other women and she had bad trouble all the time after [they married]. He had gone to church, but it did not do him much good, I do not think. They separated [and] are divorced.

FH:Is she is single now?

HG:She is single now. She is a good girl [and] a bright girl. She was one of the brightest girls in [Dixie] College over here. She was on the debating team and [was involved in] some [other] school activities. I cannot think of it.

FH:What about the second child?

HG:The second child was Wendell Roosevelt [Gubler]. [He was] named after [President] Theodore Roosevelt. He is a [very] nice boy, a good boy, and hardworking. He is a good LDS lad. He has never been on a [LDS] mission. He married when he was nineteen [years old]. He was in a very good position to go on a mission [and] was called into the bishopric. He has been in the bishopric four and a half [or] five years. Then he was bishop [for] about three years. They [placed] him [as] bishop over the Indians after he [was] through with the other place. He was bishop about eight years [or] eight and a half years.

FH:Is he married?

HG:He is married [to Cleo Beulah Hunt and they] have a bunch of [children].

FH:Where is he living now?

HG:He lives here in Ivins. [Inaudible]

FH:What about the third child?

HG:The third one is Stanley Laub Gubler. He is a nice boy, too. He had trouble when he was young. He [was] burned. The doctor had given up [on him] for about three weeks, [but] he finally pulled out of it. He never went to school [very] much. I do not think he finished his grades entirely, but he almost [finished]. He is a bright [man]. In mathematics he is one of the brightest [boys] you ever saw. He can go right through [math problems] quicker than I can do it with a pencil. He is manager of Rocky Mountain Produce. He has a fairly good job there. He broke his leg awhile ago. He was out hunting pine nuts and the limb broke. He 01:19:00fell down and broke his leg in two places. He is going around on crutches now. He has been on them about four or five months and they might keep him on [them for] another four or five months. He is getting around better. They took part of his cast off from his knee down. No, they took it off from the knee up.

FH:Is he married?

HG:Yes. [Stanley Laub] is married and has four children, one girl and three boys. [Wendell] Roosevelt has two girls and four boys. [Matha Monta] has a boy 01:20:00and a girl. They lost their first one.

FH:What is the name of [your] other [child]?

HG:His name is Brent [Gubler]. Brent went to elementary school in St. George. 01:21:00That is where the girl went too. They all went to St. George to school. This one [Brent] graduated from high school in St. George. He graduated from [Dixie] College in St. George. He could not get [the classes] he wanted. He [received] his bachelors [degree] in Provo [Utah County, Utah]. Then he [did] some work on his masters [degree]. He could not get the [classes] he wanted so he went back to Syracuse, New York and went to school there five years. He [received] his Ph.D. back there.

FH:What [is his] field of endeavor?

HG:[He is] in public administration and political science.

FH:Where is he now?

HG:He is in Salt Lake [City]. He is the head of public education and [inaudible].

FH:Is he married?

HG:[He is married to Darlene Saling and] has four children, two girls and two boys.

FH:That is all of the [four] children. .

HG:Yes. The children are all nice, good children, all of them.

FH:Are you are proud of your family?

HG:I am proud of our family.

FH:Have you been active in church work during the years you have been living here?

HG:I have been [the] presiding elder four years, assistant Sunday school superintendent for a year or two and about two or three years [as] superintendent. I was Mutual [Improvement Association] president for two or three years.

FH:Has this been a branch?

HG:It is a ward now. It was a branch.

FH:How long were you the branch president?

HG:[I was branch president for] twelve years. No, pardon me. I was twelve years in [inaudible] president. I was branch president for four years. It could have been longer, but I resigned two or three times and they finally let me go.

FH:Did you have quite a bit to do with getting water into this area?

HG:I had a lot of business getting water in here. As I said before, we bought a spring over there for $1,000.00. We [received] a $5,000.00 grant from Uncle Sam [United States government]. Then we had to have more money. I was the town 01:24:00president at that time. We could not get the money from the bank. There were only seventeen families [living] here then. I was up in Salt Lake [City] and had my eye operated on. While I was up there, I called on people in business and [didn't] have any luck. Then I called on the presiding bishopric. The bishop was gone and one of the counselors, [whom] I met when I went there the first time alone, was not too hot [about the project]. He told me to come back and the bishop had not come back yet. The other counselor was there and I talked to both of them. One of them was fairly favorable, but the other one was only lukewarm.

I decided to go and see Harold B. Lee. They were talking welfare then, too. I talked to him, [but] he would not talk. He talked, but said that [the project] did not come under welfare. I said, "If that does not come under welfare, it is starting in the door." He said it might be close, but it is not welfare. I said, "We are a small community down there. We have our water in town, but we [don't] have the water around to all the people. There are about three families against 01:26:00us. They want us to move their houses down [to] get down below the water." I told him I was not going to do that and my brother was not going to do that. Then there was another [inaudible] living now. That [land] belonged to another fellow, but he died in the meantime and they were not living there. The children were not living there. But there are two of them [inaudible]. I said, "We would not move down." Finally, they all agreed that they would help us put the water up above and around the town sites.

After we got the water in town, one of them changed his mind. He said he would move down. We told him to move far enough [to] move out of town. He would not stay here. I would not stay here. Anyhow, we had a fight over that. My brother [Jacob Martin] had to fight for the [man who] told us to come get our water. 01:27:00[Inaudible] to move down. We did go to Salt Lake [City], a couple of us, and we saw the [inaudible] people. They were trying to get money from them, too. We had to have more money. Anyhow, we did not get the money from [inaudible]. The other people helped a lot of towns here with money. Works [Projects Administration] took their place. [Inaudible] Anyhow, they ran out of funds. They were going to change over to Works [Projects] Administration. The man [who] held it [in] the first place said my brother sent him over to the Works [Projects Administration]. He said I talked to him all about it. In fact, I [saw] the 01:28:00first man who was head of the first [inaudible] and the second man was there [inaudible]. They said [we] sure needed water and they would do all they could for us. We [received] that $5,000.00.

Then we had to have more [money] and I could not get Lou [Winsor] to do anything. One day I was headed to go see the president of the church. It was Heber J. Grant [who] I went to see. I met my cousin in town. He was cutting magazines. I said, "Do you want to go up there and see President Grant? I am 01:29:00going to go up and see if I can get the money. I want to borrow it. I do not want them to give it to us." He said yes, he would be tickled to go up there. We went up there and they would not let us in the office. The man clerk said, "President Grant just came in from California and is sick. He cannot take care of you now. I do not think it would do any good to bother him." This girl, Helen, said, "This man came up [here] today, over 300 miles, to get the money to finish their water system. I think President Grant ought to listen to him." I said, "Helen, if President Grant is sick, I do not want to bother him. I will still be here, maybe [for] two weeks, and I will have time to go see him."

I think this was on a Thursday. Saturday evening I called up President Grant's residence and he answered the phone. I told him who I was, where I was from and 01:30:00what I was asking. I told him we had to have some money to finish the water system. I told him a little about it. He said, "You come and see me Monday morning at ten o'clock." He told me to go on the north side of the office building. "You go up a side way and rap on the door." He said he would have a janitor there. He might not be there on the first rap, but he said just keep rapping until he comes. I finally got the janitor and went in and saw them. President Grant introduced me to our president now and the other man. What was his name? Anyhow, we talked and they asked me a lot of questions. Finally, Grant made a motion that they divide this money. I asked them for $2,500.00. [Inaudible] They were going to give us whatever they could. [Inaudible] He told 01:31:00me what he was going to do. Brother Grant said: we are not all united here. We have to talk it over. He started to ask me some more questions. He asked me a few more, this other man did. [Inaudible] This other man said, "Not so fast, not so fast." He said he would have to talk it over. He said something about [coming] back again tomorrow morning and [they would] will give [me] an answer. [The next] morning I went to their office [inaudible]. What is his name?

FH:[Was this President] David O. McKay?

HG:McKay came out. He said, "Brother Gubler, we decided to give you the money. Go across the street. On the corner is a bank and ask for a man by the name of Smith and he will have everything fixed up for you." I went over there and I did not have any trouble finding Smith. He had it all fixed up and showed me what he had. He said, "How many families are there down in that town?" I said, "[There are] seventy--two." "How many of you will sign this note? You [will] have to sign the note." I said, "Fourteen, maybe fifteen, but fourteen will sign it." "Fourteen is enough. You sign this, take it down, sign it and send it back. When that note gets back here, the money will be waiting for you." It was ready. We [received] the money and got the water fixed.

FH:It is a good thing this community had you to engineer this [project] and go after it.

HG:I had to work on some of it. We had a lot of opposition. That is why we had this opposition. One of the main men here was the Sunday school superintendent. I was supposed to be the presiding elder. We were having troubles, he and I. He was the main bucker. He would go up and take the sacrament. I would sit up there and not take the sacrament. [Laughter] I finally told the bishopric down in Santa Clara I wanted to be released. I said, "We are not getting along up there. I am having too much trouble and I do not feel like sitting up on that stage. I want to be released." He said that is the third time I [had] asked to be released. In about a week they sent me word that I was released.

FH:You have had a rich life and a lot of wonderful experiences. You are very 01:34:00well- qualified to give counsel and advice to your descendants. Tell them how you feel about life and maybe bear your testimony to them.

HG:I have always taught them to go to church. I told them too [that] I would like to see them go on a [LDS] mission. They did not go. They were married too soon. The last boy went on a mission. No, he did not go on a mission. He went in the [United States] Army. The first one and the last one went in the army. The first one was thirty-nine months in the army. The other one was only in a little short of two years.

I have always talked to my children, tried to be good to them and tried to tell 01:35:00them how to live. I told them the benefits of Mormonism. I told them that I knew Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I told them he was born in the last days and through him the church was restored. I told them they ought to go to church, take part and be active in church. [Our] girl has not been too active. She has had so much trouble of her own. She went away from church for awhile. She was living other places. She is a good girl and is a hard worker. She is a bright girl and is a good schoolteacher. She is good in every respect. [Inaudible] all 01:36:00the places [inaudible] kind of put her on the blink. Some of the people are not as good as they ought to be. I told her they were not always as good as they ought to be and very few are very good, as they ought to be. But she is a good girl [inaudible].

The youngest boy is not as active as he ought to be. He is working up in the church. He is at the head of the Sunday school class somehow. He goes to church and is a [inaudible] now.

FH:Your children are following a good course in life.

HG:None of them are bad. Brent married a girl from Missouri. I told her Brent 01:37:00was not as active and religious as I thought he ought to be. She said. "Brent is a good [fellow] and a religious [fellow]." I said I did not have that opinion of him. If he has something to say, he will say it. He is alright. He is a good [man]. He takes part in church, [in] Sunday school and ward teaching too. Those are all the jobs that [inaudible].

FH:Is there anything else you would like to say to your descendants?

HG:I have talked to them. I have told them to read my book [Writings of Herman Gubler, Jr.] I told them that there is a lot of [information] in there that is good and interesting. I told them that I was preaching the gospel before I wrote 01:38:00that book and that is what started me to preach the gospel. Throughout the book is preaching the gospel. I told them that the church is true and they should live lives of Latter-day Saints. I think they are all trying to do that. I know some of the children have read some of the book. Some of them have not read very much. I think that, in time, they will read it. I know they would get some good out of the book. I told them I wrote something about all of them in the book. They never read that. I wrote it because I believe it is true what I have said about them.

FH:Do you have a strong testimony of the gospel?

HG:I have always preached that. I have preached that Joseph Smith was a true 01:39:00prophet of God, that he was sent to restore the church and that the church was

restored through him. I told them he was preaching the same gospel Christ taught. I still feel that way. I do not think I will ever change. I do not know what to change.

[END OF TAPE TWO -- SIDE ONE]