Interview with Emma Lucinda "Lucy" (Nelson) Larson

Emma Lucinda "Lucy" (Nelson). Larson was interviewed on October 26, 1968 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Fielding H. Harris, a representative of Voices of Remembrance Foundation. She related her personal history of living in various parts of Utah and Arizona.

FH:Would you please give your [full] name?

EL:[My name is] Emma Lucinda ["Lucy"] (Nelson) Larson.

FH:[Are] both of the surnames spelled with S-0-N?

EL:Yes.

FH:[What is] your birth date?

EL:[I was born] February 18, 1891.

FH:[Where were] you born?

EL:[I was born in] St. George [Washington County] Utah.

FH:What was your father's name?

EL:[His name was] William Nelsonis name wHHis.

FH:[What was] your mother's [full] name?

EL:[Her name was] Mary Alice (Thompson) [Nelson].

FH:How is her [maiden] name spelled?

EL:[It is spelled] T-H-O-M-P-S-O-N.

FH:What [do] you remember from your early childhood?

EL:About the earliest [event] I remember was [when] my mother had a little baby. I think I was about four years old. When the baby [Charles Nelson] was about a month old, it died [from] pneumonia. I remember my father making a little casket to bury the baby in. Then about a year later they took my mother to [the Utah State] Mental Hospital in Provo [Utah County, Utah] where she remained for 00:02:00fifteen years. [Emotional]

FH:[Did] this leave your home with a great void?

EL:Yes.

FH:How many brothers and sisters did you have?

EL:There were twelve children in the family and four [Charles, Mary Alice, Thomas James and Franklin Robert Nelson] died in infancy. I had one older sister [Elizabeth Hannah Nelson] [who] married and had one child. I had another older sister [Selena Ellen Nelson] [who] was six years older than me at home. I had a younger sister [Ruth Nelson] and I had four brothers [William Aaron, George Thompson, Marion Standiforth and Henry Ernest Nelson]. When the sister six years 00:03:00older than me married at the age of eighteen, that left me the oldest [one] at home. [I was] twelve [years old].

FH:[Did] you [have to] assume a lot of responsibility at age twelve?

EL:I had to assume a lot of responsibility, but I had a lot of good brothers. They were good cooks and helped with the laundry and the housework. We got along fairly well. My father was a boot and shoemaker. He also hauled freight with a team from Modena [Iron County, Utah]. That left us children at home alone a lot. There were a number of things that we did that we shouldn't have done. We didn't know any better, but we got along fairly well.

FH:You couldn't have been expected to have [any] adult wisdom. Did you have fun 00:04:00when you were growing up?

EL:Yes. I had a lot of fun. I was the wild one. I think sometimes if my children had done the things that I did when I was a child I wouldn't have liked it, but I really didn't know any better a lot of times. We did have fun. We played ball. We would get out in the street in the evening and play Run-Chief-Run and Hide-and- Seek. There were about eight or ten of us, all about the same age, and we huddled together. We had molasses candy pulls and had a lot of fun.

FH:In the meantime, you still had to do a lot of work.

EL:I still had the house to take care of.

FH:Were there any children younger than you?

EL:Yes. There were two younger than me. I had a sister [Ruth] younger than me and [the] little baby that I mentioned at the beginning [who] died [when] a month old.

FH:Were you able to go to school?

EL:Yes, I went to school most of the time. In those days, there were no bakeries. You couldn't buy a loaf of bread anywhere. My father would be gone. My brothers would be away. They went to the mines to work. I would mix our bread in the morning before I went to school. When my father was home, he would write me an excuse for the teacher to let me out so that I could bake the bread. Then he 00:06:00[had] the teacher understand that when he wasn't there, she would have to let me write my own excuse, because I had to go home and take care of the bread. We had cows. My sister younger than me used to help. We had to milk the cows, [take care of] the pigs and the horses and do all the chores when the men were all gone.

FH:[Did] this cause you to shoulder a lot of responsibility?

EL:Yes, I had responsibility.

FH:Were there any accidents or sicknesses in this early time? Did you have an accident?

EL:Yes, when I fell and cut [my chin]. I don't remember any other serious accidents.

FH:Could this have been serious?

EL:It could have been serious. I was running down the street and fell. I struck underneath my chin on the hard sidewalk. It cut a long gash under my chin. We did have a doctor here at that time, Dr. [Silas] Higgins. He came and looked at it. For awhile, they were afraid that I would have lockjaw. My mother's mother, my grandmother [Alice (Hulme) Thompson], lived in St. George and used to come 00:08:00and help us occasionally. She came and took care of [my cut]. I don't remember what she did for it, but I got along alright.

FH:Were you able to go to church during these years?

EL:Yes, we used to go to [The] Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. We went to Primary. I don't remember going to Sunday school very much, but I think I did go. I remember going to Mutual [Improvement Association]. When I was about fifteen [years old] I sang in the choir, off and on, until we left here and went to the ranch.

FH:What do you remember about your father?

EL:I remember a lot of things about him. He was a [very] good shoemaker. There 00:09:00wasn't much money in those days. I remember he would take us two younger girls in the wagon and go over to Santa Clara [Washington County, Utah]. We would gather up a gunny sack full of shoes to mend or repair. Then he would bring them home and get them all fixed. He would take us back with him when he took the shoes back. It was mostly trade. I remember we used to get squash, grapes, dried 00:10:00fruit and very little money. He had a farm that he tried to run. He [grew] enough hay for his own stock, the horse team and the milk cows. We always had a good garden.

FH:Was he the only shoemaker in this area?

EL:No. There was one more at the time. His name was Joseph Orton. He was a little Englishman. He and my father were very close friends. He tried to talk to my father at the time that he left the church. He sat up with him all night and tried to get him not to do it, but he did anyway. [Emotional]

FH:Do you remember [the] reasons your dad felt [for] leaving the church?

EL:Yes, I know the reasons.

FH:Are they things that you should tell?

EL:I can tell it, if you want me to. It concerns a member of the church.

FH:Did he have his feelings hurt?

EL:[Edward] "Ed" Snow was president of the stake. He was also my father's brother-in-law. He married my father's sister. We lived near [them]. My father had a shoe shop over west of the courthouse about where [O. P.] Skagg's [store] is now. He had a little shoe shop there. There was a piece of ground between the 00:12:00shoe shop and the courthouse that belonged to my father. My father had never gone to school in his life. He had no education and didn't understand laws. "Ed" Snow built a flour mill in the back of Skaggs up there. I don't know whether that building is still there. I don't suppose so. Then he came to my father and said, ""Will," the only way I can get to my flour mill is to go over your piece of ground here up in back." My father was ignorant of the law and it was his brother-in-law [so] he said, "Go ahead. Yes. Go ahead. You can use that alright." So he used it for a number of years.

Finally, after some time, my father decided he would sell that piece of ground. 00:13:00So he went to his brother-in-law, "Ed" Snow, and told him that he guessed he would have to find another place to make a road up to his flour mill. "Ed" Snow said, "No, you won't. I have used that for a long enough time so that it is a public thoroughfare. You can't touch it." It is still open today. That was what the circumstances were, anyway. We were getting along and then for a stake president [who was] his brother-in-law [to do that] -- it hurt him [very] badly. Instead of blaming the person, [my father] blamed the church.

FH:This happens quite often in people's lives. Was there ever any action taken 00:14:00against him as far as the church was concerned?

EL:Not that I know of. I don't think so. We moved away from here at the time. The daughter of a lady [who] was an ordinance worker at the [St. George] Temple married my brother. The older lady used to be an ordinance worker at the temple and would go to the temple and work all day. She drove a little one-horse rig and would come up to her daughter's, my brother's wife, and have dinner. She would talk to my father every time. She said, ""Will," why don't you go back and 00:15:00have that all fixed up?" He said, "I couldn't. I couldn't." He had been in bed for months and months. She said, "Yes, you can. We can help you." [Emotional] He said, "Well, I would like to." So they [had] several men come and they took him down to the temple. [They] took him through and put his garments back on. [Emotional]

FH:Was everything all corrected?

EL:Yes.

FH:I think it is good to have this in the record and know that it is right. Your descendants need to understand this. What do you remember about your mother 00:16:00before she had to leave?

EL:I remember seeing her around. We had a big lilac bush along a long path that ran from the house out to the fence. The big lilac bush was there and we made a playhouse underneath. She had run away once and they brought her back. My father had her sitting on his lap and holding her to keep her from running again. She got away and ran up this path past the lilac bush. I can remember that. That is all I remember of her.

Years later, before we were married, the boys all felt like dad should bring her home. We couldn't realize [her condition]. [Emotional] The Relief Society presidency would go to Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake County, Utah] to conference. [When] they would come back, they would say to my dad, "You ought to go and bring Mary Alice home." So finally they did bring her home. She stayed there for a week. She didn't know us and we didn't know her. It was terrible for her and it was terrible for us. She [wasn't] happy. She didn't know any of her children. Then the boys could see for themselves why it had to be.

FH:[Maybe] it was better that she came to let them realize [she couldn't stay].

EL:It was a lot better because we would have always kind of blamed our father 00:18:00for it and he wasn't to blame.

FH:An illness like this is just like any other illness and has to be treated like that.

EL:That is what the doctor told us. He said maybe if they [put] her there, took her now, they might be able to do something to help her. I talked to the doctor, Dr. Pike, who came here and started the Rexall drugstore [Pike's Drug Store]. He used to be a doctor [at] the [Utah State] Mental Hospital in Provo and was there when my mother was there. [Emotional] I used to worry about her. [Emotional]

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EL:I talked to Dr. Pike and he said, "You don't need to worry about that. It 00:19:00won't be many years until they will allow the doctors to operate on cases like hers." It wasn't very many years until now, [and] they give shock treatments and all these [treatments] that they didn't have at that time.

FH:They are able to help a great many of them now. Were your father and mother sealed?

EL:Yes. They were married in the Salt Lake Temple [on March 13, 1870].

FH:You have something to look forward to.

EL:I feel I do. [Emotional]

FH:The problems of mortality are but a small moment really and this will all be cleared up.

EL:This has been a testimony to me. [Emotional]

FH:Tell about your brothers and sisters.

EL:My sister, Elizabeth Hannah, was the oldest. She had one child when they took my mother away. She helped us as she could. She had two girls and four boys. 00:21:00They [are] all married. Her daughter lives in Hurricane [Washington County, Utah] now. She has been working at the Graff Mercantile store there. She married a man by the name of Duncan. I see her every once in awhile. She has a son [who] lives here in St. George.

[John Henry and Elizabeth Hannah (Nelson) Riding were married October 16, 1890 in St. George, Washington County, Utah.]

My brother older than her was William Aaron [Nelson]. He had seven children and 00:22:00four children out of the seven were blind. They took those children everywhere that they could afford. They did everything they could. [Doctors] said that the only thing the matter with them was that their sight was cast upward. They couldn't understand it. However, there is another family by the name of Lamb [in] Toquerville [Washington County, Utah who] had two blind girls that were just like them.

He and my brother, [Henry] Ernest Nelson, started the O K Market. They didn't have any education, or not very much, anyway. They took a correspondence course and then started up this little grocery store. They called it Nelson Brothers. They kept increasing and making it a little bigger and a little bigger. They finally added a little ice cream parlor. They and my father made what they called an ice house up the cottonwoods just below Pine Valley Mountain [Washington County, Utah]. They made a reservoir and would go up in the winter and turn the water in the reservoir and it would freeze. Then the next night they would turn a little more in and it would freeze until the ice [became] good and thick. Then they would chop it out in blocks. They built a little log house 00:24:00and would put a layer of this ice in the house [with] sawdust on it, then a layer of ice and a layer of sawdust until [it filled] the house. That would keep for some time.

I have gone with my father, many a time, up to what they called the ice house and brought a load of ice down. They had ice cream freezers that you turned by hand. They had the first ice cream parlor in St. George. That is the way they made their ice cream. I used to work in the little store. My sister had several boys. They would come in and turn the freezers and then would let us clean the freezers out if we would help. We [ate] the ice cream out of the bottom of the 00:25:00freezer. [Laughter]

FH:Was that your pay? [Laughter]

EL:That was our pay.

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EL:My brother, [Henry] Ernest, started the first bakery in St. George. It was in the [basement] of the E. B. Snow Furniture Store. He used to bake his own bread [and] pies. My older sister helped him. My neighbor, over here, [also worked there]. She was Hattie Carter at the time; she wasn't married [then]. The three of them worked there and that was the first bakery in St. George.

The other boys worked with my father. He had several different fields. They had land in the Santa Clara Fields and land down in [the area] they called Tonaquint, down below town. He had quite a lot of land and the other boys were kept busy helping him.

FH:Give the names of all of your parent's children.

EL:That was [Henry Ernest] "Ern," [William] "Will" [Aaron] and [Emma Lucinda] "Lucy." There were two [who] died in between here, Franklin Robert Nelson and 00:27:00Thomas James Nelson. They died in infancy. Then there was Marion Standiforth [Nelson]. That was my father's [mother's] surname. Selena Ellen [Nelson] is the sister older than me. She and I are [the] two left out of twelve. She married Chester Kemp. He was a contractor and a builder. She married him and had three children, one girl and two boys. He died and later she married John Humphries and he died. She still lives here in St. George out on the east end of town 00:28:00right on the highway.

[Chester Arthur and Selena Ellen (Nelson) Kemp were married June 2, 1904 in St. George, Washington County, Utah. He died August 20, 1940. John Allen and Selena Ellen (Nelson) Kemp Humphries were married March 6, 1947 in Virgin, Washington County, Utah. He died November 10, 1964.]

Then there was George Thompson Nelson. He was three years older than me. He got into trouble with another boy when they were about sixteen [years old]. They must have been sixteen for them to send them to the reform school. He got in with this fellow [who] was older than him. This other [fellow saw] one of the neighbors put a $5.00 greenback in a dish up in his cupboard and saw the man leave home. He [had] my brother, George [Thompson], go with him. [My brother] was small. He raised the window up and could get my brother through the window, but he couldn't get through. He told him where the money was and [he found] the 00:29:00$5.00. They took it and spent it. The man found it out and had them arrested.

I don't think they would have done anything with my brother because he really didn't steal it. He just [took] it for the other [boy]. But my father said, "I want you to send my boy to the reform school because I don't want him to do those kinds of things. Right now is the time to correct that." They sent the other fellow to the penitentiary -- he was older -- and they sent my brother to the reform school.

My older brother talked to my brother, George [Thompson]. He told him, "You can get better or you can get worse in that reform school. You have a chance to 00:30:00learn a trade there. The thing for you to do is [to] behave yourself and see if you can't learn shoemaking or cooking or something so that you can go on when you get out." That is what he did. He learned the shoemaking trade, too, just like my father did. The other fellow kept up his bad traits, but we never did have any trouble with my brother, George, anymore.

Then there is Emma Lucinda, me. I had a sister younger than me, Ruth Nelson. She married Joseph [Smith] Maloney [who] lived in Virgin [Washington County, Utah], near the Zion [National] Park. She had two girls and one boy and then she passed 00:31:00away. It wasn't too many years until her husband passed away. Her three children still live up around Virgin.

[Joseph Smith and Ruth (Nelson) Maloney were married November 29, 1919. Ruth died October 23, 1953 in Virgin, Washington County, Utah. Joseph Smith died December 24, 1958.]

Then this little baby [Charles Nelson] that I told you [about]. I think I was about four years old when he died.

FH:[Did] the death of this little [one] probably help to cause your mother's problems to come on?

EL:They said she had had a little trouble.

FH:[Maybe] it was a little more than she could handle at the time.

EL:A little too much -- twelve babies and no doctors. They didn't have [treatments] to [use] like we do today when they had sickness.

FH:You can be very grateful for your wonderful family. Has music affected your life?

EL:I love music. My father was a violinist. He also played the flute and my grandfather played what they called in those days, a bass fiddle. He played a flute. They organized a little band here and my grandfather used to play a great big drum in [the band]. My brothers and sisters had good voices. They were good 00:33:00singers. My father had one brother, Ed Nelson. When he used to go out to milk his cows, you could hear him sing all over town. The cows wouldn't let him in the corral until he started to sing. You could hear him all over town. I bet Arthur Hafen could tell you [about] that.

I [learned to play] the organ and my father tried to teach me to play the violin. I could play one or two little pieces on it. I thought it was funny, now I don't. I wish I had continued.

[END OF TAPE ONE -- SIDE ONE]

EL:We went to the dances. Even after we were married we used to go to the dances. They had other instruments. The man [who] accompanied them would get tired. He wanted to dance with his wife. He would come and ask me if I would come and change him off for a dance or two and I did. My father and mother both sang in the choir. I think all my brothers and sisters sang in the choir. I sang in the choir when I was fifteen years old. After I married and moved away, we didn't have any musical instruments at the ranch.

FH:Was music a big part of your life?

EL:Yes, my whole family.

FH:Did you enjoy reading?

EL:I love to read.

FH:I find that people [from] your day did a lot more reading than they are doing today.

EL:I think so too. They have too many other things [to do]. They get in their car and go and we used to have to stay home. My mother used to go out and sew by hand for $1.00 a day. She was a beautiful seamstress. I don't think she had a machine. They used to sew by hand. I have been a dressmaker all my life. I made all my girls' dresses, my own, and then my little granddaughters [who] we raised. I sewed for them. They were twins and everything had to be just alike. I 00:36:00would make them each a dress and I couldn't tell them apart. About the first time they put them on they would find something so they could tell them apart. My sisters and my daughters are all good dressmakers and beautiful seamstresses.

FH:Tell about your courtship and marriage.

EL:I had a lot of boyfriends. I didn't stay with them very long. If they would get a little bit funny it was all off. He [John Martin "Mart" Larson] was a pretty good [man]. He wasn't popular as some of them, but he was a lot better 00:37:00[man]. They used to come up to Bloomington [Washington County, Utah]. They would come in what they called a buggy, a white-topped outfit. You know what they are.

FH:[Was it] a flashy sporting outfit?

EL:His father had a beautiful team. It was the most beautiful team I ever saw. He was very proud of them. I didn't blame him. They put that team on the buggy. [His] dad would let him use the buggy and team and they would go along where the road was hard and [the horses] would just click, click, click. People would look up and they would admire that team. He used to drive them up there once in awhile, but usually he would come on horseback and then he would go home when he wanted to. If he came with the others and they wanted to go home and didn't have a girlfriend, he had to go home with them or walk. So he just [brought] his own 00:38:00outfit. We went together. We danced together for a lot longer than that.

We went together steady, I guess, for about a year. It took him away from his work a lot and I had to work out at that time. I used to work for $2.00 a week. I had been working at the same place [for] a number of times. I had been working at the same place for about eight or nine months. We decided that we would get married. When he went home he told his dad that we were going to get married. He said, "Why don't you go and get married right." So the next time he came up he 00:39:00told me what his dad had said. I said, "It is alright with me if it is with you. Just as well go to the temple and get married."

I went down [to] town. I had saved a little money and he gave me a little, I believe $10.00. I went downtown and paid $2.00 for enough material to make me a dress. My older sister was a beautiful seamstress and she helped me make my wedding dress. In those days you couldn't buy [Mormon] garments. [Everyone] had to make their garments. She helped me make me some garments. On June 20, 1911 we 00:40:00went to the [St. George] Temple and were married. Then we came home. We stopped at her place and had lunch and his brother came from Bloomington in this buggy, they called it a rig, and took us to Bloomington. We lived there with his folks.

He worked with his father [John Martin Larson, Sr.] and his half-brother, like he told you yesterday. We lived there for six years. We had to haul all of our drinking water from St. George to Bloomington. About the only time we ever [came] to a show was if we were bringing the wagon [with] three barrels in [it to] take water back. It would be twelve or one or two o'clock before we would get home from the show with the wagon and team.

A little trouble developed. It wasn't anyone's fault really, or I guess, everybody's [fault]. One thing [after] another and we [became] a little dissatisfied there. We felt like maybe we could do better if we could get by ourselves somewhere. My father and one brother were still at the ranch.

FH:Where was that ranch?

EL:It is about forty miles from here [near] the Indian farm. They were still at the ranch. The two of them owned it. The others had married off and [left] one 00:42:00at a time. Marion [Standiforth] and my father [were] still there. My father was getting along in his late seventies where he couldn't do much to help. He decided that he would sell his shares to someone else. My sister's boy was teaching school down [in] Bloomington and he was boarding with us. My brother, Marion, came down to Bloomington with the idea of trying to sell my father's part of the ranch to my sister's boy, but he said his wife wouldn't go out and live like that. That night I talked to "Mart" about it and said, "Why don't we buy it?" We talked about it quite a little while and finally decided that we 00:43:00would buy my father's interest in it.

In October 1916, we paid $1,000.00 down. We had five years to pay the balance. He [my husband] sold part of the cattle that we owned to his father and brother and took about twenty head. With what there was there, we had somewhere near about forty head of cattle and we had [an] orchard. We had quite a struggle to 00:44:00pay for it [while raising] four children. It was on the Beaver Dam Wash [Arizona] up toward the head [of the Wash].

FH:It was near the Utah and Nevada line. [Did] you have some apple [trees] already planted there?

EL:They had planted the trees [and] they took up all the country on the East Fork and the West Fork. Later, the boys left. They couldn't take care of it all so they gave up the ground on the East Fork. They had planted apple trees over on the East Fork and they decided they were going to throw it open. They moved 00:45:00the apple trees over on the West Fork where we bought the ranch. Later, [we] bought more trees and planted there. We had quite a nice apple orchard. In 1928, we had a lot of mixed cattle. Our boy had [grown] big enough so he helped with the riding and took an interest in [the apple trees] too. They decided they would sell all of that and buy a less amount and better quality. They sold those cattle and then went to Enterprise [Washington County, Utah] and bought 100 head of white-faced Hereford heifers. It was several years before we [realized] much 00:46:00increase off of the cattle.

FH:Was this a wise move?

EL:Yes. Another thing, when the calves were small they dehorned them. In those days, when you sold cattle and they were feeding in corrals or box cars, the horns were bad, so they [started] dehorning them. They didn't have any horns. They could feed better because they didn't fight and we [received] a higher price for our cattle. Most of the cattle men did that.

FH:[Did] you start having your family?

EL:We started our family. Our son, [Elmer Larson], was born May 18, 1912, eleven months after we were married. The next [child] was Ruth [Larson]. She was the first girl [and] was born August 28, 1914. A little better than three years later we had another girl, Erma [Larson]. They were a little better than two years apart, all of them. Roma [Larson] was born November 4, 1918.

FH:Where were they born?

EL:They were all born at Bloomington except Roma. She was born in St. George.

FH:Tell about each one of your children.

EL:I am proud of my family. [Elmer] didn't marry until he was thirty-nine years old. Roma's husband [Ellis Verl Reber was] killed [August 9, 1941] and left two 00:49:00little babies [Karon and Sharon Reber]. She had no home. He did have some stock on the range which they gathered later on. He had a little insurance. Her brother went down and helped her husband's brother gather the cattle, sell them and gave her the money. She [received] her insurance. I think it was about $2,000.00. Her father advised her to take her money and put it into a home which she did. It wasn't much of a home, but it was hers. Then he told her that she could rent it and live with us and she would have that money coming in. That is what she did until the little girls [were] old enough to go to school and then 00:50:00she had to move in here. When she moved in here the girls went to school and that gave her the opportunity of [working at] a job.

She worked in the bakery for awhile and then she worked in [a] beauty shop for awhile. Then she worked in [JC] Penney for awhile. She worked all around and finally she went to work for the McGregor doctors. I guess it [was] close to twenty years that she worked for the McGregor doctors. She worked for them when they were in what is now the Miracle Manor, the old McGregor hospital. When they 00:51:00moved into the new building, she went with them and is still with them. All you have to do is ask Dr. Hasting's wife or anyone [who] knows her what kind of a person she is. [Emotional]

FH:Are your children a joy and satisfaction to you?

EL:Yes, every one of them. [Emotional] Our son stayed home and helped. He was thirty-nine years old and tired of the ranch life. He decided he would like to 00:52:00get out and make a life for himself. They took him into [military] service first and left us alone with the ranch. He married a [very] wonderful girl. [Emotional] They sold the cattle from the ranch. We already had this little place. We had bought it [earlier]. He went up [where] he had some friends, three boys by the name of Woods. They were [very] fine fellows. I think two of them 00:53:00are bishops. They all went in together and bought some heavy road equipment. They dug reservoirs and pushed snow in the winter.

FH:Where is this located?

EL:That was up around Spanish Fork [Utah County, Utah] and Springville [Utah County, Utah]. He met this girl [who] had been married. I am not sure just what happened, but I think her husband was killed in the war. She told me, but I don't remember. They [were] married and had these three boys. They had a pair of twin boys and Roma has a pair of twin girls. We have four children and half of them have twins.

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EL:The doctor told him he was getting along in years. Dr. A. W. [Alpine Watson McGregor] advised him to get off of [the] heavy equipment. It was too hard work for him. So he sold part of it and then he took part of it and went to Idaho and bought a farm. He bought a baler thinking he would need it on the farm. The boys had their horse and their dog. He [grew] beautiful potatoes and grain. He had [very] good crops.

I used to get allergies. Certain flowers gave me allergies and the first time I went up there, of course, we had never been there before, [and] we didn't know 00:55:00what it was. We could smell this terribly sweet [odor]. In a little while, we came to a patch of clover and it looked like it was two and a half or three feet tall. It was all out in bloom and was about the most beautiful sight I [had] ever seen. It was sweet. That is the way nearly all of their crops are up there.

We had a letter from him. He had been quite discouraged this winter, the weather. We had a letter from him maybe six weeks ago. He was worried because he was afraid his potatoes were drowned. He said they were just standing in water [because] there [had been] so much rain. We had a letter from him a few days ago and he said his potatoes were not as good quality and not as good quantity as 00:56:00last year, but the price was coming up. They thought maybe they would be just as well off money-wise. He is still interested in the church. They go to church all the time. Their boys participate [and] take part. We feel like they are getting along about as well as they can.

Erma lived on the ranch with us. When they moved the CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] camps in here, she met a boy [who was] from Kentucky. They were raised much differently than we were. He belonged to another faith. Erma was baptized. All [of our children were] baptized when they were the age to be baptized. She 00:57:00fell in love with this boy and married him. They had two children. He wasn't satisfied here. He ran a service station here for quite a long while and did really well, but he wanted something bigger. So they moved to Monrovia, California [where] they bought a home and lived there. He was a car salesman and while he was there he worked for a couple of millionaires. While he was working for these fellows, he became the top salesman for Chevrolet and Oldsmobile on the West coast. He was a [very] good salesman, a good clean [man].

Problems came along, like they do, and they finally separated. A year ago she [received] her divorce. They had these two children and they [are] both married. The boy has two little girls and the girl has a little boy. They live in Phoenix [Arizona]. She divorced her husband. She was home awhile ago. She has a big ranch-type home and she was going to try and sell [it, [but] she didn't know. It was too much work. They had citrus fruit [trees]. It was too much work for her. She thought she would get rid of that big place. She has been working at 00:59:00Diamond's [Department Store]. It is a big store down there [in Phoenix]. She thought she could do better if she [sold] this big house. It had a lot of citrus trees to prune [and] she just couldn't do it. So she is going to try and sell her home. She wrote [that] she had put a 'for sale' advertisement in the paper, but she found she was going to have to have somebody sell it that knew what they were doing. She couldn't sell it. Every realtor in Phoenix called her and wanted the house to [list]. She is well and we know where she is. We hope that she will find somebody else that she can be happy with, but in the meantime, she is there 01:00:00with her two children and they get along fine together.

FH:Were you on the ranch in Beaver Wash for thirty-one years?

EL:I was there much longer than that. When my father sold the home, I was going to school. I was in the fourth grade and I think it was around 1902. When we had those earthquakes they were just building the Woodward School here. [The earthquakes, were] was just before the Woodward School was built. I stayed with my brother [William Aaron] and his wife quite a lot because of the four blind 01:01:00children. It was too much for her and he was [at] the store. I was here in St. George quite a lot of the time and lived with them. I used to work in the store quite a little bit and [in] the ice cream parlor. I would go back to the ranch for awhile. My brothers [who] were there could get along by themselves pretty well and they eventually all married. But they are all gone now. There is just my sister, [Selena Ellen] "Ellie" and me. She is eighty-three [years old] and I am seventy-seven [years old].

FH:Is she the one [who] lives here?

EL:She is the one [who] lives here in St. George.

FH:You and your husband took over this ranch and you were there until when?

EL:My father sold the home here and moved us out on the [Beaver Dam] Wash. He put flooring down for a kitchen and nailed two boards up in the corner to start the walls. The Utah and Eastern Copper Company had quite a lot of holdings here. I guess they owned [the] Apex Mine. They built a smelter on what is the [Shivwits] Indian farm. They used to call it Sham. My brother-in-law, my oldest sister's husband, ran that smelter. They hauled [the] copper ore from the Apex Mine with wagons, horses and teams. They would haul [it] up to the smelter, 01:03:00smelt [it] and get these big --.

FH:Ingots?

EL:I don't know what you call them, they were copper. When they [had] enough of those, they would put four horses on two wagons and would come out from Sham, the Shivwits Indian farm. It was twenty-two miles from the smelter to our ranch and it was twenty-two miles from our ranch to the railroad out in Acoma, Nevada. Our place was the stopping place. They could make that in one day. We had hay and they used to stop and feed their horses. Some of them were there most of the time.

When my father [put] the floor down and [had] one corner up, they put a 01:04:00telephone in there. That was in 1904. There was another telephone in the office at Sham, one at the Apex Mine, one at Jackson [Springs, Utah], one at our ranch and one at Acoma. [The telephones] all belonged to the Utah and Eastern Copper Company [who] did that. There was not [a] telephone in St. George. There was a telegraph office here. The man over the smelter lived in St. George. He rented a home and brought his family [to] St. George. His home was right on the corner of [the] lot where the A & W Root Beer stand is. That is where his home was. J. J. 01:05:00Doolittle was the overseer and he rented that home. They put a telephone in his home, too.

FH:Was [it] still there when you and your husband went out [to Beaver Dam Wash]?

EL:[It] was still there. The telephone was put in there in 1904 and we sold out in 1947. That telephone was still in the house and it remained in the house. After the house had been sold a time or two, it was still there, but they took the lines away [and] moved the mine. We went to the [man] we sold the ranch to and tried to buy the telephone from him -- for a novelty to put in our house. 01:06:00There were two of them. My brother eventually [received] one. He said that he would have given us one of them, but someone had stolen one so we didn't get it. I guess they finally stole the other one. It was the old style with the crank handle. It used to cost us $.40 to call into St. George.

FH:Where did you go when you left?

EL:We moved in here. We sold out there. We had bought this house from our oldest daughter, Ruth, and her husband. They wanted to move to Salt Lake [City. He was 01:07:00a masseur.

[END OF TAPE ONE -- SIDE TWO]

EL:They figured they could do better in Salt Lake [City]. He had three brothers up there, so we bought this house from them. We gave them cash so they would have a down payment for a home in Salt Lake [City]. We rented this [house] for several years. We never did intend to live in it when we bought it, but we rented it all the time. When we sold out, they took our son into [military] service and we couldn't take care of the ranch, so we decided we had to get out of there. Things were going down. We couldn't take care of the cattle. He [my 01:08:00husband] had had [an] accident [and] we sold it once to Lawrence McMillen of Leeds [Washington County, Utah]

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EL:He made a down payment and stayed there for a month or two. Then he [became] discouraged. I think it was too much for him. He didn't tell us he was leaving or anything. He just left all the doors to the house [open] and opened all the gates to the ranch. The lucerne [alfalfa] was up high and one of our better saddle horses was in the wire fence and couldn't get out. One of our friends 01:09:00came in and told us. We went right out and [released] the horse out of the wire fence and closed the doors and the gates. We came back in here and went to our lawyer to see what we could do.

We had it fixed up so he couldn't sell any of the cattle or anything like that without our permission and he couldn't leave the place unless he put someone else back there to take care of it or else he would have to go back. We heard that he was working at the beet plant. "Mart" went up and talked to him. He said yes, he was through with it and wanted his down payment back. We told him he wouldn't get a nickel of the down payment back. He already forfeited that [by] leaving the horse in the fence like that.

We went to see our lawyer and he said, "You take some bedding and some food, go out and take care of the stock and irrigate We can either make him go back or 01:10:00put someone on there or else go back yourselves and take it over." They talked to him and he said he wouldn't go back. So we just stayed there.

Our son was in the [United States] Army and he was nearly frantic. He knew what was going on. He went to his commanding officer and talked to him about it. He said, "I don't know why they ever took you off of that farm because you were doing more there than you [can] ever do here." He wrote us a letter and told us what to do. His commanding officer told him to tell us what to do to get him out. We [received] his letter. We came into town to see what we could do about 01:11:00it. When we went back home [emotional] he was there. [Emotional]

FH:Your son [had] come home?

EL:Yes, he was there. [Emotional] They [had] released him. We both decided to sell it two years later. They got busy and sold all of the steers. Two years later we [had] a chance to sell [and] we sold the cattle first. A little later, we sold the ranch. Then we moved in here. We still had the little girls and Roma 01:12:00had to work. We moved in here and we have been here ever since.

Now one of the girls lives right up the street about a half a block from us. She is married and has a nice brick house over there. The other one married a boy from Beaver [Beaver County, Utah] and they work up at --.

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EL:She works [in] Clearfield [Davis County, Utah]. When he came out of the service he started working [on] this big telephone line. At that time they were putting it across the country. He started working for them and she met him here. Eventually, they were married and they transferred him up to Ogden [Weber 01:13:00County, Utah]. He is still with the telephone company, but about all he does now is install telephones. He is a service worker. She is a typist. They come down once in awhile [to] see us.

Roma's other girl married Earl Thompson. He drives truck for Milne Truck Line. He started driving for them, I guess, about the time they [were] married. They have three children. Kenny is about eleven [years old] and then Leslie and 01:14:00Tammy. They all go to school.

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FH:Would you [like to] give counsel to your children and descendants?

EL:My counsel to my family, or to anyone, is do unto others as you would be done by. I think that if we can live the first two commandments, we don't need to worry about the rest. If we treat others as we would have them treat us, we wouldn't have wars. That is the way I feel. If we love God with all our might, mind and strength, I think that is all anyone needs to worry about.

FH:Have you had a lot of experience in church activity since you came back to St. George?

EL:Yes. I was in Relief Society. I was work director for awhile. Then I was chairman of the refreshment committee. I have been a quilter there for twenty years. Of course, I go to Relief Society. I have been a visiting teacher ever since I [became] active in the church, until the last couple of years. My health 01:16:00hasn't been good. I went to Los Angeles [California for treatment for] cancer. I went back and forth to Los Angeles. After I left there, I went back and forth to Salt Lake [City] for checkups. My blood pressure has a tendency to be high most of the time. I have to watch that quite closely. Otherwise, I have always been able to do about anything I wanted to. We [grew] a garden out here. We have a lot of nice tomatoes. There are a lot of people in St. George who will tell you about the tomatoes. We don't have much ground to [grow] much. We both love to work. Some kinds of work I don't like to do.

FH:Would you like to bear your testimony to your children?

EL:[Emotional] My children know how I feel. [Emotional]

FH:There are generations yet unborn who may want to know how you feel.

EL:I can't say that I know it is the true church, but I believe it with all my heart.

FH:[Do] you believe it strong enough to do something about it?

EL:Yes.

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EL:I hope someday that Erma will find someone [who] she can feel like she can 01:18:00marry and come back to the church. [Emotional] If she doesn't, we still love her. I am thankful that our children all write to us [and] most of our grandchildren. At Christmastime we get cards from all of them. We are thankful for that. I think we have had a good life. [Emotional]

FH:You have had a full life and have much to look forward to.

EL:Yes, I think we have quite a bit to look forward to. We celebrated our fiftieth wedding anniversary. We had [the celebration] in the First Ward chapel. There were over 300 people [who came]. I have the book. They give you a little complimentary book and I have it for my children to see. There were a lot of people who [came] that we know didn't sign the book. I think that is an honor. They were mostly LDS people they are our friends.

FH:That speaks louder than words.

EL:[Emotional] I think it does. Like "Mart" told you yesterday, we started selling Christmas trees. He was in the Elders Quorum for eight years and they needed a project. He mentioned selling Christmas trees. They didn't think much about it at the time, but we sold Christmas trees for fourteen years [and] each year it [was] better [than the year before]. I had a nervous breakdown last fall. It was too much and I knew it was, but we [ended] it and I am glad we did now. We won't try to take them anymore. It is a big job.

[END OF TAPE TWO -- SIDE ONE]