Interview with Charles Herbert Knell

Charles Herbert Knell was interviewed on September 7, 1968 in Washington City, Washington County, Utah by Fielding H. Harris, a representative of Voices of Remembrance Foundation. He related his personal history of living in various parts of Utah. His wife, Agatha "Aggie" Walker (McAllister) Sproul Knell, also participated.

FH:Would you please give your full name?

CK:[My name is] Charles Herbert Knell.

FH:What is your date of birth?

CK:[I was born] February 25, 1886.

FH:Where were you born?

CK:[I was born in] Pinto, Washington County, Utah.

FH:What was your father's name?

CK:[His name was] Charles Edward [Thompson] Knell.

FH:[What was] your mother's [full] name?

CK:[Her name was] Theresa Maria (Westover) [Knell].

FH:Can you recall anything from your early childhood?

CK:I remember we used to sleigh ride down what we called the Red Hill in Pinto. It was a hill right in the town. The boys used to have sleds. The track would kind of melt and then it would freeze and [then] it was just like ice. We would just come down there like a bullet. Boy, we did have fun!

FH:Did you ever have any spills?

CK:Yes! Yes! I [want] to tell [about] one experience that happened up there on 00:02:00the Red Hill. My playmates and I had some wagon tires. We were letting them come down. We just had one, but we were both [on it] together. As we came down, there was a house where the Thorntons lived. There was a window next to the hill and they had their wedding presents [sitting] all in this window. [They were] a young married couple. [The] wagon wheel went right through that window and knocked their presents right over on the floor. We were scared to death [and] we 00:03:00ran! [Laughter]

FH:Do you remember the name of the playmate that was with you?

CK:Wesley Tullis was the name of the boy [who] was with me. Another experience we had on that hill: when we were [children] we used to go out in the hay pasture right close to town. [It was a] big nice pasture. [We would] take our suppers in different places. In fact, we younger fellows used to take our suppers a lot. In the wintertime, the pasture was covered all over with ice from the water. There were probably eighty to a hundred acres of hay in [that] pasture, all covered over with ice. We used to go out there and skate. We had a 00:04:00lot of fun skating in the winter. We also used to play games while we were skating. Boy, we had fun there!

FH:Did you play [games] like ice hockey?

CK:Yes. We had a lot of fun in that hay pasture. The old and young folks 00:05:00sleighed down this hill and also skated on the ice. The girls used to come with us, too, especially when we had suppers. We had fun in that way. I always had a horse. I was [fairly] young when I started to ride. My father gave me a horse when I was [very] young. I always had a horse [and] did a lot of riding. Later 00:06:00on, I used to look after cattle with the horse. As a [boy], I had a lot of fun just in a lot of ways.

FH:[What] about your [education]?

CK:My first school teacher was Ellen Redd. She taught one year and I think Hattie Thornton taught one year and Abbie Thornton taught one year in Pinto. 00:07:00Maria Platt taught there for many years. She taught me and she taught my [children]. She [even] taught fellows older than I was. She was quite an outstanding teacher [and] got along well with people. At recess, we used to dance. She would teach us dancing. We had a lot of fun dancing. We used to play marbles a lot at recess, and [on] this Red Hill we used to have a lot of fun there all the time.

FH:Were all the grades in one building?

CK:Yes. There was one grade school [and] it had all the grades [in] one building [with] one teacher.

FH:How far in school did you go?

CK:I went through the eighth grade. Then I went to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah] one year [for] the first year of high [school].

FH:How far was that from Pinto?

CK:[It is] twenty-eight miles [to] Cedar [City]. I stayed with my Aunt Allie and Uncle Ben Knell [while I was going to school]. They were lovely people. That is where I lived while I was going to school.

FH:Did you like school?

CK:Yes, I enjoyed school. I wasn't too darn good, though. [Laughter]

AK:You liked recess!

CK:Yes! [Laughter]

FH:Did you take some trips when you were younger?

CK:I took one trip that was quite outstanding. I went to Layton [Davis County] Utah with my Grandmother [Ann (Green)] Knell. She had some family up there and I went with her. While I was there, I [had] quite a case on one of the girls. I 00:10:00was big enough for that. We went to Lagoon [Amusement Park, Farmington, Davis County, Utah] quite a lot. We had a horse and a buggy that belonged to her brother [and] we used that while I was there. I was there for about a week or ten days. We really had fun.

Before we went to Layton, Tillie Green, my cousin, came to Pinto. That is when I [had] a case on her, really. Of course, she was my cousin. There was nothing serious about it, only I really liked her and we had a lot of fun together. When we went up there we did what I said. We also went to Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake 00:11:00County, Utah]. There was a boy by the name of James Thornton [who also] had a case on Tillie Green. He had written her to meet him in Salt Lake [City]. She told me about it when I was up there. She wanted to know if I would go with her. I told her yes. [Laughter]

We went down and were to meet him at a certain place on the Tabernacle Square. He saw me with her and Joe Ferber was with him. They decided they would go down the country [area], I guess. They started down the sidewalk outside and I 00:12:00started down the sidewalk. I told Tillie about it. She wanted to see him so we hollered at him. He stopped and came back where we were and after that we all went out to Saltair [at the Great Salt Lake, Utah]. Boy, we had a lot of fun! All of us went together. I was with Tillie. She hung around me all the time 00:13:00while we were there. She was nice to everybody, too.

There was also a Miss Ashton, I think her name was, from Cedar [City] there. She was a [very] nice girl. Anyway, we decided to go to Lagoon the next night. James wanted to go with Tillie. So I told Tillie, "You just as well go with James." I 00:14:00took Tillie down in [the] buggy and James came up from Salt Lake [City] and we met there. So she went with James on this trip. Miss Ashton and I kind of got together and that is the way we paired off that day. I took Tillie back when we [were] ready to [leave] and he went his way to Salt Lake [City].

After that, through correspondence, James Thornton married Tillie Green. He was a [very] smart [fellow] and was good at letter writing. They became engaged and 00:15:00[were] married. She was a lovely girl and came down [here]. She wasn't here too long until she had appendicitis [attack]. They lived on a ranch called the Old Castle. She [had] appendicitis and died. Golly, she was a lovely girl.

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CK:There was a bunch of us in Pinto one time [who] were on this committee. After 00:16:00the party was over, they decided they would have a supper. They brought a lot of [food] to eat and took it up to Jim Platt's place and put it there so they would have it when they [were] ready to go. Rob Platt and I went up to Jim's. [Rob] 00:17:00was Jim's brother. [When] we went inside, he said, "Where is that box of food?" Jim said, "It is in there under the bed. Why?" Rob walked right in there. He wasn't in with that bunch. He and I just picked the food up and took it. We hid it. When they went back for it, we had it and then we went out in the pasture. But we didn't take the food with us. We just [thought] they would come out if we did do that. We went out in the pasture, a bunch of my crowd.

This older crowd came and thought they would catch us with the food and take it away from us. Well, we didn't have it! They wanted to know where it was and I don't know whether it was me or somebody else told them it was in Moses Harrison's wood pile. So away we went to Moses Harrison's wood pile. They moved every stick and piled it in another place to find that food, but it wasn't there, of course. [Laughter] We never did give it up. We put it off for quite a 00:19:00while before we sneaked off and ate the food. This was all in fun. They weren't mad about it, but they [inaudible].

Another time the committee had some food down at Brother Forsyth's. They were going to have it. Dick Forsyth, one of Brother Forsyth's sons, wasn't in with the older bunch. He and John Tullis [had the food] and took it down to Tullis'' 00:20:00granary. In the first place, they hid it in the barn. Brother Forsyth was riding with them and he was going to go out and get the food. But Dick had already gotten it. He took a nose bag out and was going to put it in that and bring it in to the [children] so we wouldn't know anything about it. It wasn't there. That started it and, boy, we sure had fun there! [Laughter] We had quite a time.

FH:What about your early church activities?

CK:I always did go to [The] Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] and Sunday school. My father and mother both taught me to do that and I always did go. We used to have a teacher by the name of Liddie Knell. She was a lovely person. She was my aunt. She married my father's brother, [James] "Jim" [Green Thompson] Knell. She was certainly a lovely teacher and I really liked to go to 00:22:00Sunday school. I always did go to Sunday school and church and Mutual [Improvement Association].

FH:Did you go to Primary, too?

CK:Yes, I went to Primary.

FH:Did you have some religion class training in school?

CK:No.

FH:That is unusual, because most of the places in this area had [a] religion class in connection with their school [classes].

CK:[There wasn't] any religion class, that I recall.

FH:Did Liddie Knell teach several ages?

CK:Yes. She went along with us as we were promoted. She was really a good teacher. We thought a lot of her, too.

When I grew up and was married I was called as first counselor to Frank Knell in the Pinto Sunday school for several years. He moved to Newcastle [Iron County, Utah] and the bishop chose me for the superintendent. I was superintendent and was the last superintendent they had in Pinto. When it [the ward] was 00:24:00disorganized, I was the superintendent at the time. After that, I moved to Newcastle and was asked to be a counselor to Woodruff Tullis in the Sunday school. I served until he was released and then they chose me as the superintendent at Newcastle. I was the superintendent there for quite a few years, but I don't remember just exactly how long. I was in the superintendency when I was called as first counselor to the bishop at Newcastle. I served as a 00:25:00counselor for fourteen years in the bishopric. I really enjoyed it. I was ordained a High Priest by Stephen L. Richards. It used to be customary for the presidency to do this, but I believe now that the stake superintendency has that right.

FH:They can do it, but there are many of them [who] are still ordained by General Authorities.

CK:Yes, I know they are, but I know they do that a lot now, the president of the 00:26:00stake, I mean. When I was ordained the presidency always did it. I [received] a wonderful blessing from him.

I haven't talked about my courtship with my first wife. My mother died and in a 00:27:00few years my father married a woman by the name of [Isabell Ann] Hulda [(Barron)] Pearce. She was a widow and had two daughters, Phoebe [Isabell (Pearce) -- [she] was my wife -- and Mina [Pearce]. Phoebe stayed in Washington [City] with her grandmother for quite a long time. Finally, my father brought 00:28:00her grandmother to Pinto to live with us. She lived with us and Phoebe came to Pinto then when she came. I [had] a case on Phoebe, anyway, so you see I married my [half]-sister! [Laughter]

FH:Your father had quite an influence.

CK:[Laughter] Yes, he did! We had quite a courtship. We used to take our suppers out in the pasture a lot. I had a team and buggy and I thought just as much of 00:29:00it as I do my car today ─ maybe more. It was really in style, too. I felt [fairly] good about that. We went for rides a lot. This James Thornton I was telling you about, had a case on Phoebe, too. This was before he was married. I married first. She used to fool around with James quite a little bit. I finally 00:30:00decided I would go over to Kanarraville [Iron County, Utah] and see if there was a girl over there. So I did. When I came back, James was there with my [future] wife. Of course, I didn't like that a bit, but I just went in and talked to them a minute and went to bed and left them there. To top it all she promised to go out with him again that night. They had a date. I told her if she went with 00:31:00James that was the end of it with me. I said, "You just suit yourself. You go with James if you wish, but if you do we are through."

Then she wanted me to take her in the buggy and go over to Page's ranch which we did when our date was to come. I did. I believe it was the next Sunday that she had this date. I went over there to Page's ranch. John Tullis and Ida, his wife, 00:32:00were there. They were good friends of ours so we went over there. That is how she got out of that [date] with James. She never did go out with James any more after that.

I remember we went over to The Meadows, I think it was the next day, to [the] funeral of Sister Canfield. We called it The Meadows, but it was Hamblin Valley where we went. We used to call it The Meadows all the time. We went over there 00:33:00to a funeral [and] they buried Sister Canfield. I took Phoebe over in the buggy. James and a big crowd went over in a wagon box. [There was] quite a crowd of them. They used to kid him and me a lot about it. We used to have a lot of fun. James and I clashed quite often, it seemed like.

[END OF TAPE ONE -- SIDE ONE]

CK:I went with a Mary Gardner [from] Pine Valley [Washington County, Utah]. He had a case on her. I went with Mary quite a long time. I had a girl in Cedar 00:34:00[City] that I went with, Winnie Perry. They had a Sunday school reunion in Pine Valley and [people] came from Cedar [City] and all over the country [area]. We had a big time in Pine Valley. We were there two or three days and had a dance each night. I had asked Mary to go with me to the dances and Winnie Perry came 00:35:00over. I really thought more of Winnie Perry than I did of Mary. I told her what happened and I took Mary to the dances. In the daytime I would take Winnie and we would go up to Brother Warren's. They had an orchard up there and we went out in the orchard and spent quite a lot of time. I thought a lot of Winnie at one time. That is when I was going to school in Cedar [City]. Of course, there was really nothing serious about it. I never did ask her to marry me or anything. We 00:36:00went together for several years. That was before I knew Phoebe, my wife.

FH:How did your courtship with Phoebe turn out?

CK:We went out one day out in the pasture under the willows and had our lunch. I asked her to marry me.

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CK:We were married in the St. George Temple [on] October 14, 1908.

FH:Was this quite a little trip down to the St. George Temple?

CK:Yes. We were tracting at the time in Pinto when I left there. I [took] Joe Eldredge's team and my dad had the white-top buggy. We went to St. George in this buggy. My father's wife, Hulda, went with us. We came [from] Pinto about 00:38:00forty miles. It was quite a trip. We drove through alright. It was quite a long trip for one day. A lot of times we would stay at the Chadburn Ranch overnight when we would come down. That was about halfway or more. This time we drove through and went to my Aunt Misha Conder's [place] and stayed with her.

FH:How do you spell Misha?

CK:[It is spelled] M-I-S-H-A. Uncle Lynn Conder, C-O-N-D-E-R, was her husband.

The next morning we went to the temple. One little instance there: it happened that "Aggie's" father, my wife now, was in the temple. He was a recorder. After we [were] married, he came to me and said it was customary to give him some 00:40:00money for a temple donation. I had gone without my purse so it was quite embarrassing. I didn't have any money with me. I have always thought of that. I advise anybody if they are going to [be] married to take their purse with them. [Laughter]

We came out of the temple and went to Dave Forsythe and his wife's place for 00:41:00dinner. They were good friends. In fact, Dave Forsythe lived in Phoebe's mother's home for several years. Then we [went] to Washington [City] and went to Grandpa [Oscar Fitzland] Westover's place and had another dinner. Then they asked us up to Phoebe's grandmother's. We went up there and had another dinner. [Laughter] Then they had a social outside on the lawn at Grandpa Pearce's place. 00:42:00Everybody in Washington [City] was there, practically everybody. Then we stayed with Will Pearce that night. That was Phoebe's father's brother's place here in Washington [City]. The next night we went to St. George and stayed with Aunt Misha.

The next day we came home. It was storming quite a lot of the way. Phoebe and I walked several miles. We just got out of the white-top buggy and walked just because we wanted to. We [came] home and the next day they had a big party for 00:44:00us in Pinto. People from all over the country [area] came and they had a big dinner for us. That night we had a dance. We sure did celebrate! We really had a big time. I will always remember that. It was a [very] lovely wedding and it was a lovely time. They used to do it a lot more than they do now when the 00:45:00[children] are married off. They don't do very much anymore. All they have us go for is to bring presents now-a-days. [Laughter] We [received] a lot of lovely presents, though, when we were married, too. My dad bought another home and we lived in the old home that he left for quite a few years. It had two bedrooms, a living room, a kitchen and a little summer kitchen and a porch. It was a right 00:46:00nice place to live.

FH:Did you continue your church activity?

CK:Yes.

FH:Was this part of the time you were in the bishopric and in the superintendency of the Sunday school?

CK:Yes.

FH:Did you have your children there in Pinto?

CK:My [children] were all born in Pinto.

FH:Tell about those children.

CK:Ronald was our first boy. Ronald Herbert Knell is his real name. Then Harry 00:47:00[Knell] came along. He was [born] three years after Ronald. After Harry was Ruth [Knell]. After Ruth was Chester Green Knell. I had some lovely [children]. They were really a comfort to me. They thought a lot of their dad and mother, too, I will say that. They all thought so much of my father and stepmother, my father 00:48:00and Aunt Hulda. My father was married again. They just thought the world of my father and stepmother. I thought just as much of my stepmother as I did my own mother. She was just a lovely person. I would confide in her and tell her about my love affairs and everything. I just confided in her all the time, all through my married life and before I was married.

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FH:Were your children married while you lived in Pinto?

CK:All of my children were married while we were in Pinto. Ronald was married first. He went to Salt Lake [City] and took [a] barber's course. He was up there quite a while. He met Virginia Sanders. He courted with her a long time, quite a long time, a year or two. They finally married. They lived in Salt Lake [City] 00:50:00for quite a long while. They were there during World War I [and] came to Pinto soon after World War I started. He came to help me on the farm.

FH:How many children did they have?

CK:They had five children, one boy and four girls. After Ronald came to Pinto, 00:51:00he helped me on the farm. It was my dad's farm and I was running it at the time.

FH:What is the second child's name?

CK:Harry was the second boy [and] he married Georgia Snow from St. George.

FH:How many children did they have?

CK:They had two girls and a boy.

FH:Where do they live?

AK:[Inaudible]

FH:Did they end up living in Cedar City?

CK:Yes. They went to Cedar City [to] live. That is where they are living now. They built a lovely home. He is a car salesman [and] is doing [very] well.

FH:[What about] your third child?

CK:Ruth married Lloyd Ward. They live in Cedar City. They first lived in Parowan [Iron County, Utah]. Then they went to California and were down there for quite a few years. They came to Cedar City and that is where Ruth is now, but Lloyd died. Ruth is a widow now.

FH:How many children did they have?

CK:They had two daughters, Dorothy and Wendy [Ward].

FH:Who is the next child?

CK:My boy, Chester Green Knell, was quite a [fellow]. He really was a good singer, a lovely singer. There was a man by the name of Don Holt, a lawyer, who used to come up to Pinto from Ventura [California]. He wanted to take Chester down and get him an audition on the radio, but Chester had rheumatic fever and 00:56:00he wasn't very well. His mother didn't want him to go. Well, I didn't either, as far as that goes. Don would have taken him down there and [had] this audition, alright. I am sure he was quite influential down in that part of the world and a lawyer. Chester always hated that. He hardly forgave us for not letting him go at that time. He was just a [boy], but he had a lovely voice and played the guitar. He enjoyed singing.

Finally, we went to Cedar [City] with Chester on account of his fever. He was there under the doctor's care for quite awhile. Then we heard that this [chiropractor,. Dr. Parley] Harris from St. George, was sure good [treating] that fever. I came down and talked to Harris about it. He told me to bring Chester down. He said the hot weather was not bad for him. He said, "You bring him down and, if I don't help him, you won't have to pay me anything." I told 00:58:00him that was good enough. So we came to St. George. By the way, Vernon Snow lived in Pinto and he had a home here in St. George. He offered us this home to stay in while we were down here.. He is the father of Harry's wife. This was before Harry was even married, I believe. He was just a good neighbor and a good 00:59:00[fellow] and that was what he did. Of course, we paid the electricity and expenses we made there. As far as paying for the home, he gave it to us free gratis. I sure thought a lot of him for that.

Chester came [down] and Harris started doctoring [him]. He just kept taking everything away from him as far as food was concerned. Harry had been eating ice cream, but he took ice cream away from him and a lot of things. Then he would give him these treatments, chiropractic treatments. He really helped Chester. We 01:00:00had to bring Chester down in the bed. He couldn't sit up when we brought him [down]. He wasn't there very long until he could get up. But he couldn't walk when he first got up. He was so weak he couldn't walk. He could crawl but he couldn't walk. But he kept at it and finally was able to walk. We took him out for rides in the car. He could walk out and get in the car. When we came back to 01:01:00Pinto he sat up in the car and felt [fairly] darn good. He just kept improving until he [was] practically over it. So that was a blessing, I will say.

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CK:Chester had a friend here in Washington [City] by the name of Clark Smoot. 01:02:00Chester had a trailer house out here in the lot and they went to get some wood for the trailer house. They came back and [brought] the wood and unloaded it. Then they went in the trailer. I guess they had something to eat. [Inaudible] 01:03:00They were there that afternoon and they finally went to bed. I [would] go out to see if Chester was alright [almost] every night. Before I would go to bed I would go out and see if he was alright.

FH:How old was he then?

AK:He was in his forties.

CK:Was he forty [years old]?

AK:He had been married once. [Inaudible]

CK:Yes. Chester had been married..[TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF]

CK:In the night, "Aggie" could see this great light outside. She could tell that it was a fire. She hollered at me and said she thought [the] trailer was on fire. I went out and, golly, it certainly was on fire! I couldn't get close to it at all. I wanted to go in and see what I could do, but I couldn't. I just couldn't. He had [a] light coming from the house into the trailer and [it] 01:05:00shorted the light so we didn't have any lights at the time. Our lights were gone. We couldn't see the telephone. We wanted the telephone [to call] the fire department in St. George. Our neighbor, Lee Stewart, could see the fire and he telephoned around and [had] quite a lot of help here right now. There were a lot 01:06:00of people [who] came [and] the fire department came.

They were too late. They couldn't do anything. Chester was lying on his bed with his hand [on the] back of his head, just lying natural. [It] didn't look like he had even moved. I don't think he [was] burned. I think he suffocated from the smoke. It just looked like he hadn't even struggled. That is the way it looked. 01:07:00Clark Smoot was down on the floor. He didn't very often stay with Chester, but he did this night. They were both burned up. It was an awful [event], just terrible. By the way, that is Chester [in that picture] over there.

[Chester Green Knell died November 30, 1965 in Washington City, Washington County, Utah.]

FH:How long [did] you live with your first wife?

CK:I really don't know how long I lived with her. [Laughter]

[END OF TAPE ONE -- SIDE TWO]

CK:Phoebe and I were [very] happy and we got along [very well]. About the only trouble we had was she used to criticize me for scolding the [children], 01:09:00correcting them. She used to take the [children's] part all the time. That is the only trouble I ever had with Phoebe. When she corrected a [child] I was right behind her.

FH:[Maybe] she didn't like to see them picked on. [Laughter]

CK:She didn't like them being picked on, that is right. She couldn't stand it. But oh, she was a lovely woman. Everybody loved Phoebe. She was a lovable person, nice looking.

AK:She was beautiful.

CK:She worked a lot in the church ─ especially with the young people. She had a patriarchal blessing that said that she would work with the young people and 01:10:00she did. She thought a lot of the [youth].

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CK:Phoebe was [very] good in getting subject matter for talks. She gave a talk on The Book of Mormon one time. She gave it in the church in Newcastle. The president of the stake, at that time, was there, Brother Palmer. He told her 01:11:00that that was the best talk he had ever heard on The Book of Mormon. She was [very] talented when it came to [giving talks] like that.

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CK:I sure did love Phoebe. She was a lovable person. She never had an enemy [and] everyone loved her. Finally, she developed cancer in her breast. She had a 01:12:00lump in her breast [and] she used to go over and see Dr. Graf often. He said to come in every time we came over and let him see it. He didn't want to operate and we didn't either if it wasn't necessary. If he had operated on her and taken that lump out she would have been alright. She wouldn't have died of cancer.

One time, after we came [moved] to Washington [City], we went to Cedar [City] to 01:13:00see him and he examined her. He wanted to operate right then. He didn't even want us to come home. It was kind of hard for us not to go home. I said we could go home and come back the next day. He said, "Alright, do that." We came home and the next day Ronald and I were going back with Phoebe. It was stormy and snowing some. We [were] up on the Black Ridge and [the road] was just like ice. We went as far as we could and we couldn't go any further. Ronald and I just 01:14:00took the car with our hands and turned it around on the ice, it was that slick, and came back to Washington [City]. We stayed overnight and the next day we started again and we [went] through, but we were that much late. [She was] operated on ─ they took her breast off and way around the shoulder. It was quite an operation.

Then we went to Salt Lake [City] to [see] a specialist up there and she gave her treatments. We made several trips to Salt Lake [City]. In fact, Dr. Graf 01:15:00operated on her two or three times, but he couldn't ever stop [the cancer]. [He] couldn't get it and it killed her. She died [from] cancer. It [went] into her blood. She suffered [quite] a lot. She died March 10, 1953 [in Washington City].

FH:[Did] that leave you lonely for awhile?

CK:Yes, I will say it left me lonely, [very] lonely. We had one of the best funerals I think that anybody could have here in Washington [City]. They wanted to take her to St. George, but we just wouldn't stand for it. We wanted to have [her] funeral here. She was acquainted here and we wanted the funeral [here]. There were so many people [who] came that [they] couldn't get in the house. They were turned away. There just wasn't [any more] standing room. But we did have a 01:17:00lovely funeral.

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CK:By the way, Rulon Knell gave one talk and oh, it was a lovely talk. By the way, I asked Rulon if he would talk at my funeral when I died. He was my cousin. He said, "Yes, I would be glad to if I am around." But Rulon has been dead quite awhile, so I guess he won't talk at my funeral! John Tullis [gave a] talk. He 01:18:00was the Newcastle Ward bishop. We certainly did have a lovely funeral.

I want to say another thing about the singing. Pearl McAllister sang a song and it was lovely. I have heard it since, but if it is possible I sure would [like] her to sing the same song at my funeral. It was [very] lovely.

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FH:What effect has music had in your life?

CK:I don't suppose I am too good, but I played the guitar and I still play it. I played for a lot of dances. I used to go with Erma Iverson to the Monday night dances and play in the band. Later, [I played in the band] with Quentin Nisson. 01:20:00We played over there fourteen years, I believe. We played a long time for the Monday night dances. We used to have a [very] good band.

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CK:I took my daughter, Ruth, and her baby over to "Aggie" Sproul's place. She was a [very] good friend.

FH:Was she a friend of your wife's before, too?

CK:Yes, she was a friend of my wife. Ruth is my daughter. I started dating "Aggie" after that. We went to the dances every Monday night. We used to dance 01:21:00and have a lot of fun. I played in the orchestra, at the time, but I would always get off and have one dance with my wife, anyway.

FH:Do you want to tell about [your] marriage [to her]? Did you propose to her on a Monday night?

CK:No.

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CK:I took "Aggie" home after a Monday night dance. She invited me in ─ she 01:22:00generally did. Then she proposed to me. [Laughter] That might be kind of a joke. She had just as much to do with it as I did. I will say that much.

AK:[Laughter]

FH:Was it by mutual agreement?

CK:Yes, by mutual agreement. I guess we better put it that way. We have had a lovely life. It was sure different after [we] married.

FH:[Did] she accept you or you accept her?

CK:Yes.

FH:Then did you get married?

CK:Yes.

FH:How long ago was that?

CK:[We were married in] 1954.

[Charles Herbert and Agatha "Aggie" Walker (McAllister) Sproul Knell were married December 19, 1954 in St. George, Washington County, Utah.]

AK:[Inaudible] We have been married now --.

CK:Fourteen years the 18th [19th] of December.

FH:Has this been a [very] good arrangement?

CK:Yes, I will say [it has]. Chester and I were living here alone. He was with me at the time. It was not right being all alone, but both of us sure welcomed 01:24:00"Aggie" when she came.

FH:Tell about your father.

CK:I had a [very] good dad. I thought he was one of the best men [who] ever lived. He was quite a prominent [person] in Pinto. He led the choir. He ran a threshing machine [and] that was quite a thing [to do] in those days. He took the threshing machine all over the country [area] and threshed the grain both at 01:25:00Grass Valley, and Hebron [in Washington County, Utah]. Enterprise [Washington County, Utah] was just starting about that time so he didn't do much threshing in Enterprise, I don't think. He went to Pine Valley quite a lot besides going to Grass Valley. They had a machine over there but they wanted dad to come over and thresh their grain.

FH:Was he a pal to you?

CK:Yes, dad and I got along [very] well working together. I worked for dad and 01:26:00we had our property together. [I] worked right with him and we both took care of the family. In fact, I bought the home that we lived in. I helped pay for [it] and we had cattle [together]. We worked together all the time. When he died, he willed everything he had to me. He had other children, but I had worked with him 01:27:00and owned property with him. Anyway, he made his will out to me, all of it.

FH:Tell about your mother.

CK:My mother died when I was fourteen years of age, I believe. I remember she was a [very] good cook. She used to be just like my sister, "Nell." She was a [very] good cook, but she always said, "Come and have something to eat. I don't 01:28:00have anything, not a thing. But just come ahead and do the best you can." She had a banquet every time! I remember my mother used to read stories to us. How I used to enjoy that when I was a little [boy]. When mother was sick I used to go to Cedar [City] about once a week for medicine and [to] see the doctor. I was quite a young [fellow] then. I would go over one day and [come] back the next. 01:29:00Dad used to plan on me for a lot of things, although I was quite a [boy] at the time.

FH:Can you name your brothers and sisters?

CK:[Clara Ellen] "Nellie" [Knell] was my oldest sister. Mabel [Knell] was the next. Alice [Ann Knell] was next and then I came in there, [Charles] Herbert [Knell]. Then there was Theresa [Maria Knell] and Grace [Eliza Knell]. We had 01:30:00two boys, [Lewis] "Lew" [Walter Knell] and [William] "Willie" [Westover Knell], [who] were burned up in a barn.

My mother let them go down to the barn to feed the chickens. While they were there, my uncle, Ted Westover, had his camping outfit down there. He had it kind of holding the straw so the calves wouldn't get out. [The boys went] in there and found some matches, I guess, and struck them and started a fire. That straw just went like that and they were trapped in there and burned up. My father was 01:31:00still over on Iron Mountain [Iron County, Utah] at the time. He was over there locating some mining claims that he abandoned [later]. He didn't ever go back and do anything about [them], but some of those claims he located, Dan Page located them later and he sold them. He [received] around $100,000.00 [from] those claims. Dad never went back after that. He was over there with Joe Eldredge, my brother-in-law, at the time. But they never did anything more about [the claims] after that.

FH:Was your home life a happy life?

CK:Yes.

FH:Did your father marry again after your mother died?

CK:Yes. [Mother] died and two or three years after that he came to Washington [City] and met Hulda Pearce, was engaged to her and [they] married.

[Charles Edward Thompson and Isabell Ann Hulda (Barron) Pearce Knell were married April 17, 1902 in St. George, Washington County, Utah.]

FH:Was Hulda a widow?

CK:Yes, she was a widow..FH:How many children did she have?

CK:She had Phoebe and Mina. Their father was "By" Pearce.

FH:Is that Byron?

CK:I guess, Byron. They called him "By." [His name was James Byrum Pearce.]

FH:When your father married Hulda, did Phoebe come to live in your home at that time or later?

CK:Didn't I tell about this?

FH:[It] seems like we talked a little bit about that. Did she stay with her grandmother?

CK:Yes, she stayed with her grandmother at first. Then, finally, dad brought his family to Pinto and Phoebe came to Pinto.

FH:Is this when you took over? [Laughter]

CK:That is when I took over! [Laughter]

FH:What has happened to your brothers and sisters? Are any of them still alive?

CK:Yes.

FH:How many have been lost besides the two [who] were burned?

CK:"Nell", Mabel and Alice have died, but the others are alive. They are all doing fine. I don't get to see them too often but [I do see them] occasionally. They are lovely people [and] I sure love them.

FH:Your father has a [fairly] large posterity.

CK:Yes, he does [have] quite a large posterity.

FH:What have you been doing in recent years? You have [continued] with your music.

CK:I drove the school bus here in Washington [City] soon after I [moved] here. I drove for seven years from here down to the [Washington] Fields into St. George. In fact, I was driving the school bus when Phoebe died. The reason I did was because I figured I had to have something to do right here so I could stay home. I used to do a lot of work in the mines, contracting a lot. I made some [very] 01:36:00good money contracting over at Iron Mountain.

FH:What kind of contracting?

CK:For instance, I dug a little well there by Iron Springs [Iron County, Utah]. We dug it in about five hours and made $100.00 out of it.

FH:When you say you dug a well, did you dig a hole in the ground?

CK:Yes, I dug a well. Then I had quite a lot of mining shafts that I contracted 01:37:00[and] I made some good money. In fact, on the first day on this [one] shaft I made $100.00. I was getting $10.00 a foot and I went ten feet alone. Then I [had] a man help me. We had a whip to raise the bucket out. I [had] a man go down in the mine and I stayed on top and took care of the muck that would come 01:38:00up. I made [very] good money there. [The] fellow who helped me [was] named Moss. [He was] a good worker and I gave him a dollar or two more than the company was paying the miners in the mine. I made good money [with] him. He was a [very] good worker and he just went right to it. I had several contracts like that. Then I contracted right in the mines. Will Pearce, my wife's uncle, had a 01:39:00contract right in the mines. We had seven raises and three tunnels at one time. Of course, we took different shifts and ran it with the boss in the mine. We made some [very] good money there.

FH:Did you spend quite a bit of time in the mining business?

CK:Yes, [and] I was a sheep shearer. I used to follow that [work] quite a lot. I used to make [very] good money at a [very] hard, dirty job, but there was good money in it. I made $60.00 [or] $75.00 a day, a lot of times, shearing sheep. 01:40:00When I first started to shear sheep I only [received] about $.07 a head for shearing. [This] was before I was married, quite a long while, when I was a [young boy], in fact. I sheared with the blades until they [had] machines. Then I went to machines. The first job I had with the machines was in Modena [Iron County, Utah]. I think they had eighty shearers at that time. It was a big plant and they sheared a lot of sheep from all over the country [area] at that time. I 01:41:00came here to Dixie in the spring and sheared and then went up into Idaho and Montana, through that country and sheared sheep. We sheared there until July.

[END OF TAPE TWO -- SIDE ONE]

FH:Did you follow around wherever there was work?

CK:I followed the work quite a lot.

FH:When your wife [became] sick, did you decide to stick around closer [to home]?

CK:Yes, that is right. I had a chance to get this job and I was right there. I 01:42:00worked at that [job] for seven years. By the way, I didn't [pay into] any Social Security when I was with the school.

FH:They still don't. They work on a different plan.

CK:I didn't get anything out of the school. It was quite against me when it comes to Social Security. If I could have [paid into] Social Security at that time, I would have [received] more Social Security than I am getting now. [When] I started [receiving] Social Security, I only [received], I think, $35.00 [a 01:43:00month] to start with. Then I put in a lot of work that I had done, some with the [inaudible] outfit. They didn't put the right Social Security number on [the forms] and I had quite a time getting [it corrected]. I had to get the Social Security [office] to write to this company. They [received] it and [that] raised my Social Security [check]. In Cedar City I was at the mines and hauled water 01:44:00for the wells [where] they were drilling for ore. They had to have water. I hauled water and I [received very] good wages for that [work]. They raised my Social Security [check] several times.

FH:Did you get it straightened out?

CK:Yes, I straightened it out [and] finally [received] it. But if I had [paid into] that school Social Security I would have been getting more than I am now.

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CK:When I moved to Washington [City] they put me in as a ward teacher. I worked 01:45:00at that and I am still working at that job. I was chosen as the High Priest leader here and I was in that for ten years. I worked in [the] Mutual [Improvement Association] one year as a counselor to Anton Nielsen. I want to mention that I am now working with the adult Aaronic [Priesthood]. That is my 01:46:00job in the church now [and] I am the teacher. I just wanted to mention that. I have always worked in the church and have always gone to church all my life. I have enjoyed it and I like to go. I like church, Sunday school and all [the meetings].

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CK:I haven't done a lot of temple work. When I was in the bishopric in Newcastle, we used to come every once in awhile. I have been a few times since I have lived here, but I have not been very much of a temple worker. "Aggie" and I 01:47:00worked over at the Bureau of Information at the [St. George] Temple for three years.

FH:That is interesting work.

CK:Yes, I enjoyed that. It was fine. We met a lot of different kinds of people. There were a lot of our people [who] came there, church members besides non-church members.

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FH:Tell about your singing and your music.

CK:I have always loved to sing and especially in crowds. I still do. I love to 01:48:00get with crowds and sing songs that we know. I play the guitar right along. I play for dancing and singing with senior citizens twice a week now. I belong to the Granny Band [laughter], I and Ed Nisson. They have chosen us to be in the Granny Band.

FH:I think you ought to sing a song for us on this tape.

CK:I would like to sing a song. [He sings The Laughing Song and plays guitar.]

AK:[Inaudible]

FH:Tell more about your singing career and what you have done.

CK:I used to sing quite a lot in Newcastle with a quartet that we had. I used to love that. I have always sung in the choir. In fact, we are singing in the choir 01:51:00here [in] Washington [City] now. Andrew Jolley is our leader and he is certainly a good leader. We are practicing now, right along, once a week. We sing in church quite often. We go on trips to St. George and Kanab [Kane County, Utah] and Hurricane [Washington County, Utah] and different places that we take the choir and sing. I sure enjoy it. We sure have a good leader, good organist, pianist and some good singers. I think we have a [very] fine choir and we enjoy 01:52:00it. We are going to make quite a few trips. We have plans to go where people have asked us to come. We are going to [travel] quite a lot this summer [to] different places. We all enjoy it.

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The Granny Band was asked to go to Salt Lake [City] to the [Salt Lake County] Fair and play. The county paid our way. Mrs. Zigler is the leader of our Granny Band. She is a very talented lady and plays the piano. They asked us to go to 01:53:00Salt Lake [City] and we [did]. We really had a nice trip there. We had a man with a bus take us up and bring us back.

FH:How many people are in this band?

CK:There are about eighteen in this Granny Band.

AK:[They are] all grandmothers and one great-grandmother.

CK:[They are] all grandmothers and great-grandmothers and grandpas. There are two grandpas, Ed Nisson and [Charles] Herbert Knell. [Laughter] We went up to the fair and were up on a stand right in the fair and, of course, a loud speaker. We played there quite awhile. They asked me to sing The Laughing Song 01:54:00and I did.. They paid our hotel bills and we had a lot of fun going, coming and while we were there. We really had a right good time.

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CK:We have a grand old home in Pinto. It belongs to Ronald, my son, but I helped him pay for it. In fact, "Aggie" and I fixed up one room, plastered it and carpeted it and fixed it up [very] nice. We have our room up there and go quite 01:55:00often. Boy, it is really fun! Just the other day we went up, Labor Day, and had chicken, potatoes, onions and [food] like that cooked in the bake oven. Boy, was it delicious! We go up and stay overnight every once in awhile. We don't live there, but we sure have a lovely old home.

FH:Do you have your family get-togethers up there?

CK:That is where we go up there quite often. Last year we had the "Charlie" 01:56:00[Charles Edward Thompson] Knell reunion. My father's [children] had their reunion. Do you remember how many were there, "Aggie?"

AK:[Inaudible]

CK:[There were] seventy or seventy-five of us there. We had a [very] nice time. It was nice to see all of our relations. We do that quite often. In fact, our family is going to do that right along. We have an organization that takes care of this part of it. We get together quite often.

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FH:Would you leave counsel now for your descendants?

CK:Yes. I would like them all to live their religion. That is the main thing. I would like them all that haven't, to get married in the temple. I think that is really necessary. I hope they study, get a testimony and they will do these things. It is certainly up to you folks now to do it. You have the opportunity. There is no reason why you shouldn't do what I am asking you to do, to go to the temple and be sealed in the temple, those that haven't. [Some] of you have and I 01:58:00am tickled to death about that, [but some] of you haven't.

I would like to bear my testimony that I know that God lives. I know that there is a hereafter. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the living God. Knowing this, I know I don't live up to the things I should, but knowing this helps me try to live right. And I do really know this. I pray that my children 01:59:00[who] haven't will all get a testimony. One of you has, I know. As I said, go to the temple and be sealed to one another. It is really necessary. If you are going to enter into the kingdom of God, you have to go to the temple and be sealed to your husbands and wives, wives and husbands. I pray that this will happen. I ask God to be with us, and our friends that we will all strive to live 02:00:00right and do right. I ask this in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.

[END OF TAPE TWO -- SIDE TWO]