Interview with Henry George Mathis

[The tape] you are about to hear was made sometime in the latter part of 1958, [just before Christmas]. It was recorded by Charles Moore, who was the husband of Flo [Flora] (Stoker) Moore. [She] is the half sister of Anna (Stoker) Mathis. The voices you are about to hear are Henry [George] Mathis, at the time 97 years old, Charles Moore, George Macfarlane Mathis, and Anna (Stoker) Mathis. This tape was in the possession of Charles Moore for 37 years, and was given to Henry George Mathis, II, in St. George, [Washington County, Utah], in the spring of 1995. We believe this is the last recording [recorded at the home of George M. Mathis in Price, Carbon County, Utah], of grandpa's voice that we have, as he died in January of 1959. [He would have been 98 on May 2, 1959.] [This preface 00:01:00was by a grandson, Frank Douglas Mathis of Santa Clara, Washington County Utah.]

[The first part of the tape did not survive.]

HGM: We lived in Plane City, [near Ogden, Weber County, Utah], at the end of [the] year 1861. [I was] born May 2, 1861.] In October father was called to Dixie country to raise cotton. We left about two months after the call. They left in a wagon and traveled to St. George. I think they were about three weeks 00:02:00on the way. It might have been a little less time. They were the first company that landed in St. George valley. That is the first company that was called, there had been settlements up and down the country there before that time. [There were] pioneers and explorers and so on, but they were the first called by Brigham Young to Dixie to settle St. George in 1861. They had experimented in raising cotton in two or three places, in Washington, the year before and below 00:03:00St. George valley on the Virgin River. In Santa Clara, [Washington County, Utah], they had experimented and raised a little cotton. He called a company of people to go and colonize in St. George and build a city. St. George was made the center of Washington County at that time. The first county seat was in Washington [City] in 1861 after St. George was settled, that became the center of Washington County. President [Brigham] Young bought a home there. The home 00:04:00was already built by Joseph Birch. He lived there a number of years. I remember [it] well [as] I visited his home when he was living in that Birch home.

CM: Did you know Brigham Young?

HGM: Did I know him? Yes, I talked to him lots of times. I sold him chickens, butter, and eggs.

ASM: Did Brigham Young ever talk to you about Joseph Smith?

HGM: No. Brigham Young was very popular at that time. He had a lot on his hands, 00:05:00of course. He didn't have time to talk very much to children, only in public.

CM: He just lived down there in the winter, didn't he? He came down in the winter?

HGM: He didn't move to St. George for a number of years, two or years after it was settled. Then he moved there for the winter after the homes were built. His wife, Lucy B. [Bigelow] lived in St. George. She was the mother of Susa Dunford Gates. [Susan Amelia Young was married to Alma Bailey Dunford in 1872 and a second marriage to Jacob Forsberry Gates in 1880.] Susa Dunford was his [Brigham Young's] daughter. [Dr. Alma] Dunford was a dentist. He made a set of teeth for 00:06:00my mother [Anna Barbara (Bryner) Mathis]. I helped to pay for that [by] taking butter, eggs, and chickens; whatever they needed to help pay for those teeth. She had those teeth until she was 90 years old when she died. It was a good set of teeth. Dunford was called on a mission. While he was gone, he and his wife had a misunderstanding. I don't know what it was. She started divorce proceedings against him while he was on a mission. Before he got home some of 00:07:00the local authorities thought they [were] doing a good thing and kidnapped to kill the two children [Leah Endora Dunford and Alma Bailey Dunford]. They took them out to Mt. Trumbull [Arizona] so Dunford couldn't get a hold of them when he got home. Dunford made a threat that some of them would smell powder if they didn't quit. That is all talk, you know. They separated. Dunford took the boy and Susa took the girl. The girl grew up and became the wife of John [A.] 00:08:00Widtsoe. She's still living.

ASM: Do you want to tell something about the temple?

HGM: Brigham Young said there would be a temple in St. George. He dedicated the ground before they started work in the valley for a temple. In 1873, I guess, 1872 or 1873, they started work excavating on the temple. I worked there as a boy helping to excavate. Schoolboys would go and work [on] Saturdays. They 00:09:00excavated for the temple and then they went a little farther to excavate for a footing for the foundation. They ran into soft mud. Where they first started the temple there was a hard [inaudible] soil up on a little ridge. It was thought that that was a very good, solid place. They broke through that and found wet 00:10:00sticky soil. They stopped work. They didn't know whether to move the site or what to do. Brigham Young came down. He held a council with the young men. They decided that they would prepare the foundation with rocks. Have you ever been to St. George?

CM: You bet!

HGM: Remember that hill west of the valley?

CM: Yes.

HGM: All around the foothills they gathered small rocks. [They] hauled them to 00:11:00the temple grounds and pounded them into the soft mud. They pounded the ground until this 700-pound weight would rebound or get so solid. They had a derrick raised like the old-style pile driver. They had to raise it with horses. They didn't have electric power to do the work in those days. They had to man a team pulling that up.

ASM: What did they use for a driver?

HGM: An old cannon and old artillery. There were some stories about where [it] came from. Some said that it came from Nauvoo, [Illinois]. Some said that it came from California. I don't remember which, but it was old artillery. They filled it with lead so it weighed about 700-pounds. They used that to pound the ground.

ASM: What did you do to help?

HGM: I played on the ground, I guess. [Laughter] I helped load the wagons that hauled the small rocks. We [used] scoop shovels. The boys would rake the rocks together from the foothills into little piles. It was fine, heavy gravel [and] small rocks. They would rake them into piles with rakes. The men would load it on the wagon. They used planks, dumped it off, and had men shovel it into this 00:13:00foundation and pound it. Then they built the foundation mason work with black rocks, found a good place where the rocks were large, and had men quarry the rock out for the foundation, black volcanic rock. Nothing could phase it. The red ledges, sandstone, they'd soon dissolve. They didn't keep well. They found this black rock made a splendid foundation. They went up that for the first shoring, but then they built it with red sandstone. They quarried it all into 00:14:00blocks and laid it up.

They called men from the north to help build the temple. Young men from Sanpete [County, Utah], and all over the northern part of the country were called to Dixie in the wintertime to spend a few hours working on the temple. They had some regular workers all of the time that lived [off] of the produce of the country that was paid in tithing. There was no money then. You couldn't get a dollar. It took about $8. worth of common trade to get $1. in cash. I remember 00:15:00Heap Smith [who] was a carpenter. He's one that would get a job of work. You'd ask him what he'd charge and he said, "Pay me cash and I'll do it for nothing." [Laughter]

CM: [Inaudible]

HGM: In the trade of the country it would take $7. or $8.

GMM: They used some scrip for money, didn't they?

HGM: Yes, they used scrip. The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] did that for the convenience. It worked real well because there was a great money 00:16:00panic in 1873 in the United States. You couldn't get any money but they issued scrip. They had a co-op cattle herd. They ran a meat market. People could get all the beef they wanted. They built a factory, worked up their cotton, and made clothes. They had a tannery and made leather, made their boots and shoes. That was the trade of the country for a number of years. I remember hauling wood when I was about 15 years old. I hauled wood and sold it for this kind of pay, scrip. Cedar wood.

CM: Utah wasn't a state then, was it?

GMM: No.

HGM: Of course, they always had a lot of cottonwood [trees] fall in the creek. But with cedar wood they had to take two days to get a load of wood.

GMM: How long did it take to complete the temple?

HGM: To finish it, it took about three or four years. I believe it was dedicated in April 1877. That fall Brigham Young died in 1877. He got to see the temple 00:18:00finished and dedicated before he died.

GMM: Utah wasn't a state at that time, of course.

HGM: No. A good many years before it was a state.

CM: [Inaudible]

HGM: They had a hard time getting it to be a state.

CM: Was it part of the United States or any country at all?

HGM: They had an organized government. They had a territorial governor and a territorial legislature. The appointed officers were appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. They didn't appoint any Mormons to these offices. [The] federal court had a United States government 00:19:00court. Their lawyers and the judges came from the east.

GMM: Tell us some more of your personal experiences. When did you [leave] that country?

HGM: What?

CM: Tell us some more of your personal life when you left the country.

HGM: [I left] just before I was 21 years old. I never had been out of Washington County, [Utah], at that time. I never had seen a railroad and [there were] a good many things that I hadn't seen. I had never seen an orange or a banana, but 00:20:00we raised a lot of fruit, melons. [Inaudible] There wasn't any of it shipped in. It was hard to get. In 1869 was when the first railroad came. The freight in the earlier days [was from] California. Lots of the goods in southern Utah were freighted from California with mule teams. They discovered mining camps. The first big silver mining camp was in Pioche, [Nevada] an awful tough city. It kind of ran out of silver and then Silver Reef, [Washington County, Utah], was discovered. Silver Reef was about 18 miles from St. George. Started a rush for 00:21:00Silver Reef! Silver Reef became a very wild city. They had their own government. Then I [left] when I was 20 years old [inaudible]. I had ever seen--

ASM: Your father and mother were very faithful to the church, weren't they?

HM: Very, very. They'd give anything they had that Brigham Young would ask for. The people all were very liberal with each other in those days that were faithful, but some of them drifted away. A lot of them apostatized, couldn't stand it. But the faithful people organized. I remember anything that was lost 00:22:00going to the field or anywhere, lose a rope or a shovel, they'd take it to the tithing office. We'd go to the tithing office and find our lost rope or shovel. That was practiced but there were always some dishonest people.

ASM: Were you there when the men were hurt [building] the temple?

HGM: Were hurt?

ASM: Yes, was anybody hurt building the temple?

HGM: Yes. When pounding this rock into the foundation they had a derrick exposed 00:23:00and they'd swing it around. You'd understand, they had ropes. They got kind of careless with some of their ropes. I remember one time the rope broke and let a derrick pole fall and hit a young man on the head. It didn't kill him. He got over it. [His name was] Pete Granger. He was a son of, have you heard of our Congressman Granger? His brother was Pete Granger and [he] worked on the temple, old man Granger's son.

ASM: What did the boys do for entertainment then?

HGM: Danced. Drank wine. That is one thing. They went to raising wine grapes first thing in Dixie. Brigham Young found out that that was ruining the young men, tippling too much. I remember when my father used to take a bottle of wine to the field everyday for his dinner. Brigham Young said it was wrong and preached The Word of Wisdom. That stopped it. He never took any more wine for his dinner.

ASM: Did you make any ice cream in those days?

HGM: No. Never.

ASM: What did they have for refreshments?

HGM: They had bread and molasses. They raised sorghum cane and made molasses. 00:25:00They never made any sugar, never bought any sugar. Sugar was $.50 a pound, [as] I remember, $.50 a pound. We didn't need it. We had all the molasses we wanted. We cooked preserved fruit in this molasses. Peaches and all kinds of fruit [were] preserved. People lived very well on that.

ASM: Do you know any faith promoting stories?

HGM: What?

ASM: Do you know any faith promoting stories that happened at about that time?

HGM: Well, I never thought much about stories. Some of those faith-promoting stories were published for the children to read. I never took any stock in them. I don't remember.

ASM: Tell where you went to from St. George, and then about coming to Price, [Carbon County, Utah].

HGM: [Long pause] One of Brigham Young's sons was a great railroad contractor. 00:27:00John R, no--

ASM: John W.

HGM: John W. Young was his name. He was a brother to young Brigham Young. [The] young Brigham Young was an apostle later. John W. was a very wild man. He [worked] railroad contracts [and] he made a lot of money. He beat some of his men who worked for him. [Inaudible] He was very liberal. He spent lots of money. 00:28:00He didn't care how he got it or what he did with it. He had a railroad contract in Old Mexico. Some of the boys who went down there to work. McCullough and Alf Billings had a little grading outfit. They worked on the railroad from Albuquerque, [New Mexico], across the country. Atlantic and Pacific [Railroad], they called it. That was in 1881 or 1882 [when] they worked on that railroad. 00:29:00When they finished that they went down there and took a subcontract to work. A few of us boys got together and went down there to work. [Included in the party were about 20 souls: Dick McCullough, Guy McCullough, Will Thomas, Will McCullough and wife, Hy Bryson and his wife and several children, George McMullen, and a tramp who was picked up in Silver Reef.] We left St. George with a team [and] went directly south to the Colorado River, ferried over the Colorado River at Pearce's Ferry, and traveled down through Arizona with the Southern Pacific [Railroad]. Southern Pacific Railroad was built from the east to Los Angeles, [California]. Phoenix, [Arizona], was just a little supply town. There were a lot of little shack houses, supply freighters. The Salt River 00:30:00[Arizona], was quite a big stream. In early March we had to ferry over across the Gila River, [Arizona]. We couldn't ford that but we could ford [the] Salt River. Traveling along the railroad east there [were] about 20 people in our company. We night-herded our animals all the time. We were afraid of Indians.

GMM: Explain what you mean by night herding.

HGM: All of our animals, when we [were] traveling, had to be turned out to rustle their feed. They had to camp wherever they could get something. We could haul a little concentrated feed. We always had a little grain. We'd always feed our horses a little grain [at] night and [in the] morning and then turn them out on the prairie overnight. We had to have a herder to keep them together and look after them. I only [had] to follow the railroad until I got to Benson, Arizona. 00:32:00That is near Tombstone, [Arizona]. Tombstone was a great mining town at that time, in 1882. Some of them stopped there to work. About half of our company loaded our animals on the train there and shipped them to El Paso, [Texas]. From El Paso we crossed over the river into Mexico. We went down and worked on the railroad from El Paso to Mexico [City]. I was there two years working on the railroad.

CM: What kind of work were you doing?

HGM: Building grades and construction. We did it all by team, scrapers, and 00:33:00building a dump for the railroad.

CM: You were supervising and contracting, weren't you?

HGM: I had a partner. One of the [inaudible] boys and I bought a little railroad outfit of about 30 little Spanish mules. We worked grading with those mules for nearly two years and then came back to El Paso. El Paso had become quite a city 00:34:00in those two years. [A lot of] people flocked there. I sold my interest in the mules in El Paso in the spring of 1884. I took the railroad north through Albuquerque and Santa Fe, [New Mexico]. I don't know what railroad came through from Kansas City, to Pueblo, [Colorado]. At La Junta, [Colorado], [it was] just a new country [back then]. I understand now [it] is a great farming country all along the Arkansas River. The Arkansas River runs right through the country. 00:35:00From Pueblo they had a narrow gauge [rail] road to Salt Lake City. That was built through in 1882. I took the narrow gauge train from there to Castle Valley. [This railroad station later became Price, Carbon County, Utah.] My brother [John Henry Mathis] had located in Castle Valley. He had worked on the railroad [that] we went through two years before and [then] located there. My brother, my sister [Barbara (Mathis) McIntire], and brother-in-law [Brigham O. McIntire all settled there]. We settled along the river of the town. There were 00:36:00branches along the river in 1884.

CM: Tell your brother and sister's names.

HGM: One of them was Barbara. My brother John was four years older than I. Barbara was two years older. They were born in Lehi, [Utah County, Utah], before [the family] went to Dixie, before they went to Ogden, [Weber County, Utah]. What was it you asked?

UV: [Inaudible]

HGM: I made a little money in Mexico. I thought I was pretty well [off]. I had about $2,500. in gold when I struck [inaudible]. I thought I could buy the world!

CM: What did you get for your outfit in El Paso?

HGM: The outfit cost us about $5,000. for the two of us, but we [bought] it on time and made it pay for itself. When we got through there and came up to El Paso to finish that road, I sold my interest to my partner. I sold that to him for $1,200. half [of the] partnership. I had about $2,500 when I got to Price. I loaned it out amongst my friends, bought machinery, started to farming, and bought a few cattle. My brother, [John Henry Mathis], and I had in mind to go into the cattle business and farming. I had a little fortune in my mind in the 00:38:00cattle business. My brother was in ill health and he finally died. He was the first person buried in the Price cemetery. That was in 1886.

CM: What was Price like back then?

GMM: What was Price like when you reached there?

HGM: There wasn't any Price. There was just a railroad station there, a stopping place. When I got my ticket in Pueblo they didn't have a name for any stations along [the way]. I wanted to get a ticket to Price. I had learned that name but 00:39:00the railroad company hadn't established it. The conductor in Pueblo didn't know anything about Price, so I had to buy a ticket to Salt Lake City, [Salt County, Utah], and got off at Price. I stayed there.

CM: How many people were living there?

HGM: My brother was in ill health [and] he died. I waited on him six months before he died. I paid the doctor bills and everything. He had a family.

GMM: About how many people were there at Price when you came there?

HGM: I don't know. There were people scattered around, a few ranchers up and down the river. I don't know just how many. There wasn't a house on Price town side.

CM: When you decided to go to school--

HGM: This was a pioneer life. It was a rough life. The time I [was] in Mexico, a six-shooter was my best companion. That happened for about two years. I had a big six-shooter when I got to Price. Price was a tough place, but I didn't need the six-shooter like I did in Mexico. A Mexican robbed me one time when I 00:41:00happened to be without my pistol buckled on. After that I always had it. I was never dressed until I got that on. Mexicans were afraid of a white man with a six-shooter. I had a rough life until I was 23 years old.

CM: Did you ever have to use your six-shooter?

HGM: Never. I'm glad I never did have to.

CM: [Inaudible]

HGM: No.

CM: [Inaudible]

GMM: [Inaudible]

HGM: Not on men, I [used it] on game. I was quite an expert with a six-shooter. Did you ever see any quail, wild quails? What part of the country were you from?

CM: I was born in Rigby, Idaho.

HGM: Idaho. They didn't have the California quails up that way. In Dixie country there were lots of quails. Lots of quails in Mexico and all kinds of wild game.

GMM: Tell us some more about your own life; when you married and what offices you held.

HGM: [Laughter] I don't know that! Do I have it [the microphone] close enough?

ASM: Yes.

GMM: [Where] did you go to school?

HGM: When I got to Price, of course, I never had any education to speak of. We had our schools in the Dixie country about three months during the winter. [We] learned reading, and writing, and arithmetic, and the rules of a hickory stick. I had learned to do some business. I drove team from the time I was big enough. 00:44:00I learned to handle a team, and handle a little money, and handle freight. I learned to figure a little. I decided when I came to Price that I would go to school. I was 24 years old. I went to Brigham Young Academy in Provo, [Utah County, Utah]. I started there and that's when my brother got so laid-up. I had to quit the Brigham Young Academy my first year. In the winter of 1886, I started [at] the University of Deseret. [This was the beginning of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City.] John R. Parks was president [and] Kingsbury, Joe Toronto and Joshua Paul were the professors. They had four 00:45:00professors at the University of Deseret. The next year they had more professors. I attended part of two years at the University of Deseret. I never did graduate, but I took some advanced studies. Language was my hardest study. I [was] determined to get the English language. That is where I put in most of my study. I didn't have to study any arithmetic, because that came quite practical. In 00:46:00geography I had to learn that some, and writing. I went to the University of Deseret two years and then got married. After my wife died I went another part of the year at the University of Deseret. I taught school a little bit. After my wife died, they elected me Sheriff of Emery County, [Utah].

ASM: Tell [us] your wife's full name.

HGM: Mary DeFriez. [Mary Jane Ventom DeFriez]

ASM: She died leaving a little girl.

HGM: Yes, she died and left a little girl. My sister Barbara raised that little girl [and she] saved her life.

ASM: What was her name?

HGM: Mary.

ASM: Mary, what?

HGM: Mary Florence Mathis. Her sister was named Florence and I gave her the name of Mary Florence.

ASM: Then you [were] married again after awhile?

HGM: Yes, Later on I married Sarah [Ann] Macfarlane from Dixie.

ASM: Tell [us] about your children.

HGM: My first child was George. [His children: George Macfarlane Mathis, Ivan John Mathis, Zelma Mathis, Myrtle Mathis, Murray Mathis, and LeGrand Macfarlane Mathis.]

[END OF TAPE - SIDE ONE]

HGM: Then LeGrand. LeGrand was our baby.

ASM: Sarah was a very faithful, good woman.

HGM: My wife?

ASM: [She] had lots of faith.

HGM: Oh, both of them. Both [were] very true girls. There never [were] better girls [that] lived than they did, both of them.

ASM: Tell [us] something about your sheriff experiences.

HGM: I didn't have very much sheriff experience. I was only sheriff for about a year, a little over. [Inaudible] They took Carbon County, [Utah], away from Emery [County], and that disqualified me. They had to have their own sheriff. I stayed in Carbon County. I was [the] county treasurer. I was [the] county 00:51:00commissioner in Emery before I got to be sheriff. I was [the] county treasurer in the first organized Carbon County. I never was successful after that in politics. I could have been the mayor of Price, if I had wanted to. I don't think that it was ever very much of an honor to be mayor of Price.

ASM: Did you have any experiences with outlaws while you were sheriff?

HGM: No. [Inaudible] I never drew a gun except on one man. I arrested a few people, but I never drew my pistol except for on one man. He was a convict from Colorado who escaped. The sheriff of Colorado traced him to Emery County. They found out he was there and I went over there and arrested him. He was the only man that I ever put shackles on. I put handcuffs on him, brought him over to Price, and turned him over to the Delta County, [Colorado], sheriff. [Inaudible]

ASM: Tell something about your age and give your name again.

HGM: My age? I spent my 23rd birthday in Price.

ASM: How old are you now?

HGM: I'm 97 [years old].

ASM: How old do you want to live to be?

HGM: [Laughter] As long as the Lord will let me [live]!

ASM: What about the St. George Centennial?

HGM: I'd kind of like to live [long enough] to go to the St. George Centennial. 00:54:00I went there when it was first settled in 1861. I was six months old. If I live until 1961, that will be 100 years. I want to live to be 100 years to celebrate the big celebration. I'd like to be there.

ASM: Have you any advice for anybody to make them live a long time?

HGM: No, just live, I guess! [Laughter]

ASM: What about Brigham Tea?

HGM: I never took much notice of my health. I lived on whatever I could eat as a young fellow and all of my life. I used to have some sick spells. I had a little 00:55:00stomach trouble during my lifetime. I was a great coffee drinker. I drank all kinds of stuff. I drank [inaudible] whiskey. I learned to love whiskey! [Laughter]

ASM: What do you drink now?

HGM: [Laughter] Brigham Tea, I guess! I don't know whether you know what that is. It's a bush that grows in the hills of Dixie country. It's called mountain rush. It's kind of a jointed bush, little joints. I guess that Brigham Young 00:56:00advised people to drink it. That's very good tea. I understand that some doctors have recommended it and it's put into packages and sold some places as drugs or health tea with some alfalfa tea with it.

ASM: What is the most important thing in life?

HGM: The most important thing?

ASM: Yes. What do you think about happiness? What about joy and happiness?

HGM: I made a thorough study of psychology when I went to school. I take more satisfaction in practicing some of [nature]; I can't get away from nature. I don't care what kind of a life. All of the happiness we get is in the mind. All of the sorrow we get is in the mind. We can just make it ourselves. We shouldn't feel sorry about anything. We should guard against it.

ASM: How would you like to end your talk? It's about through.

HGM: End it? I have been a church member all of my life. Born and taught--

[END OF TAPE - SIDE TWO]

UV -- Unidentified Voice